From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 1 07:04:37 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 07:04:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: <4pt9pw5jejso7phqt08el1e4.1385873892630@email.android.com> References: <4pt9pw5jejso7phqt08el1e4.1385873892630@email.android.com> Message-ID: Paul, Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the first paragraph. :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxismthat dominated many western universities during the 1970s. [*citation needed *]In contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a science that examined objective structures,[1] and he believed that humanistic , historisticand phenomenological Marxism , which was based on Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology".[2] So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. Larry On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points > out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. This they > impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the > proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and > empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology > with structural Marxism. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > -------- Original message -------- > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii > > Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain that > mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass theory > of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton Cooley > (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of the > self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of perspective > taking? > Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work of > the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots in > his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas > Stewart. > > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Charles Bazerman wrote: > >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of influence > from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective taking? Given > the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. education, I wouldn't > be surprised if that work got to Mead as well. Chuck > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Greg Thompson > >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po > russkii > >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> > >> > >>> Mike, > >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of > Hegel's > >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, self-consciousness > arises > >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. Here > is > >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: > >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that first > >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it > must > >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to > >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > proceeds to > >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." > >>> > >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to Hegel's > >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). In > that > >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the > >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the > perspective > >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for the > full > >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as fully > >>> self-conscious. > >>> > >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's inspiration > in > >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable and, > to > >>> my mind, of little consequence).] > >>> > >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in > Marx's > >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the > relations of > >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the > commodity > >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the individual > >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and rich > >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for > >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to > >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not just > our > >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal kinship, > i.e. > >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. > >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are > "just > >>> like us". > >>> Isn't that perspective taking? > >>> > >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have > made its > >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at > all...). > >>> -greg > >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously > looking > >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. > One of > >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just a > >>> minute to XMCA. > >>> > >>> > >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 179 < > >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has > come > >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its > own > >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has > thereby > >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially > real, > >>> but sees its own self in the other. > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 180 < > >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that > first > >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it > must > >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to > >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > proceeds to > >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 181 < > >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double sense > is at > >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, firstly, > >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with > itself > >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it > likewise > >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it was > >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the > other and > >>> thus lets the other again go free. > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 182 < > >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another > >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the action > of one > >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double > >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that > other > >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within itself, > and > >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first > does > >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form characteristic > >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing > independently > >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for > its own > >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to it. > The > >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both > self-consciousnesses. > >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it > demands > >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, only > so > >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be > useless, > >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of both. > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 183 < > >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that it > is > >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the sense > that > >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other > >>> regardless of their distinction. > >>> > >>> ? < > >>> 184 < > >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us as > the > >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in > consciousness. > >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating experience], > holds > >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is self-consciousness > which > >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this > interchange of > >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. > While > >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in being > >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it > exists > >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. > >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another > >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it > cancels > >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the > >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the other, > >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each is > to > >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, at > the > >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They > >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these > issues. > >>> My > >>> > >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational > >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point > of > >>> view > >>> > >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to > interpersonal > >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective > taking, > >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? > Empathy > >>> has to > >>> > >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian > traditionS > >>> we often > >>> > >>>> discuss)? > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that is > >>> referring to > >>> > >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe this > >>> question of > >>> > >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question > on > >>> *kinds* > >>> > >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] > >>>>> > >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems > to > >>> be > >>> > >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and > practice > >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a > clearing > >>> for the > >>> > >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its > convergence > >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is > explored > >>>> in > >>>> > >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. > >>>>> > >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting exploring > >>> notions of > >>> > >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] > >>>>> > >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' > >>>>> identified as themselves > >>>>> > >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made > >>>> intelligible > >>>> > >>>>> but are not themselves > >>>>> > >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or > between > >>>>> minds and bodies regarded > >>>>> > >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of > understanding, > >>>> a > >>>> > >>>>> distinction between > >>>>> > >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities > with > >>> which they > >>> > >>>>> are concerned. And in > >>>>> > >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is > that > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> understanding of identities > >>>>> > >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be > 'reduced' > >>>>> to the understanding of > >>>>> > >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* > >>> [multiple] AS > >>> > >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This > realm > >>> of KINDS > >>> > >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to > converge > >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. > >>>>> > >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. > >>>>> > >>>>> Larry Purss > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity and > >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say > they > >>> are > >>> > >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me to > >>> wondering how > >>> > >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in the > >>>> work I > >>>> > >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and > >>>>>> Piaget. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from > English > >>> for > >>> > >>>> these > >>>> > >>>>>> terms, the cognate > >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase > for > >>> "point of > >>> > >>>>>> view" is literally that, > >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if > I > >>> know what > >>> > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> P > >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on > >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky > >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am > asking. > >>> Perhaps its > >>> > >>>>>> just my bad question! > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Visiting Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Dec 1 10:03:27 2013 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 13:03:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Message-ID: Larry I agree with althusser because ?once capitalism becomes reified through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the material world it becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the realm for scientific investigations. ?However, I do not believe that that Gramscian/althusserian reification negates the ontological nature of being as such highlighted by heidegger in "being and time" ?the job of the social philosopher is to outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? -------- Original message -------- From: Larry Purss Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Andy Blunden Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Paul, Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the first paragraph. :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxism that dominated many western universities during the 1970s.[citation needed] In contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a science that examined objective structures,[1] and he believed that humanistic, historistic and phenomenological Marxism, which was based on Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology".[2]? So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of rationality.? In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. Larry On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. ?This they impute to species-being. ?Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and empathy. ?The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology with structural Marxism.? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? -------- Original message -------- From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Date: 11/30/2013 ?8:19 PM ?(GMT-05:00) To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of the self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of perspective taking? Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! Greg Sent from my iPhone On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas Stewart. > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Charles Bazerman wrote: >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. education, I wouldn't be? surprised if that work got to Mead as well.? Chuck >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Thompson >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>? >>> Mike, >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of Hegel's >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, self-consciousness arises >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. Here is >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that first >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it must >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon proceeds to >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to Hegel's >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). In that >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the perspective >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for the full >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as fully >>> self-conscious. >>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's inspiration in >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable and, to >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in Marx's >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the relations of >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the commodity >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the individual >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and rich >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not just our >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal kinship, i.e. >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are "just >>> like us". >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have made its >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at all...). >>> -greg >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously looking >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. One of >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just a >>> minute to XMCA. >>> >>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >>> >>> ? < >>> 179 < >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has come >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its own >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has thereby >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially real, >>> but sees its own self in the other. >>> >>> ? < >>> 180 < >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that first >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it must >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon proceeds to >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >>> >>> ? < >>> 181 < >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double sense is at >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, firstly, >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with itself >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it likewise >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it was >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the other and >>> thus lets the other again go free. >>> >>> ? < >>> 182 < >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the action of one >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that other >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within itself, and >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first does >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form characteristic >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing independently >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for its own >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to it. The >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both self-consciousnesses. >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it demands >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, only so >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be useless, >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of both. >>> >>> ? < >>> 183 < >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that it is >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the sense that >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other >>> regardless of their distinction. >>> >>> ? < >>> 184 < >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us as the >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in consciousness. >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating experience], holds >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is self-consciousness which >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this interchange of >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. While >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in being >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it exists >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it cancels >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the other, >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each is to >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, at the >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>??? >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these issues.?????? >>> My >>>??? >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point of?????? >>> view >>>??? >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to interpersonal >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective taking, >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? Empathy?????? >>> has to >>>??? >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian traditionS?????? >>> we often >>>??? >>>> discuss)? >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss ?????? >>> wrote: >>>??? >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that is???????? >>> referring to >>>??? >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe this???????? >>> question of >>>??? >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question on???????? >>> *kinds* >>>??? >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >>>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems to???????? >>> be >>>??? >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and practice >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of? questioning which opens up a clearing???????? >>> for the >>>??? >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its convergence >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is explored >>>> in >>>>????? >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting exploring???????? >>> notions of >>>??? >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >>>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >>>>> identified as themselves >>>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >>>> intelligible >>>>????? >>>>> but are not themselves >>>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or between >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >>>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of understanding, >>>> a >>>>????? >>>>> distinction between >>>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities with???????? >>> which they >>>??? >>>>> are concerned. And in >>>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is that???????? >>> the >>>??? >>>>> understanding of identities >>>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be 'reduced' >>>>> to the understanding of >>>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences*???????? >>> [multiple] AS >>>??? >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This realm???????? >>> of KINDS >>>??? >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to converge >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >>>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >>>>> >>>>> Larry Purss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>??????? >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity and >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say they?????????? >>> are >>>??? >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me to?????????? >>> wondering how >>>??? >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in the >>>> work I >>>>????? >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >>>>>> Piaget. >>>>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from English?????????? >>> for >>>??? >>>> these >>>>????? >>>>>> terms, the cognate >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase for?????????? >>> "point of >>>??? >>>>>> view" is literally that, >>>>>> tochka-point? zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >>>>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if I?????????? >>> know what >>>??? >>>>>> it >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> P >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am asking.?????????? >>> Perhaps its >>>??? >>>>>> just my bad question! >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 1 11:09:06 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 11:09:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* and therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of THIS transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a reification of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as this transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how central the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I am attempting to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the medieval called *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed into a confidence in private judgement Ardent suggests, as a consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia and the common good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes transformed from civic *virtues* to realms of power. For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter of *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of private and public realms of intersubjectivity Larry On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes reified > through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the material world it > becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the realm for scientific > investigations. However, I do not believe that that Gramscian/althusserian > reification negates the ontological nature of being as such highlighted by > heidegger in "being and time" the job of the social philosopher is to > outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Larry Purss > Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity" > Cc: Andy Blunden > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po > russkii > > > Paul, > Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of > *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. > I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the > first paragraph. > > :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxismthat dominated many western universities during the 1970s. > [*citation needed > *] In contrast to > Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a sciencethat examined objective structures, > [1] and he > believed that humanistic , > historistic and phenomenological > Marxism , which was based on > Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". > [2] > > So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other levels > of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of > rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not > merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific > *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and > phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. > I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of > *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* > humanistic ideology. > Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of > heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. > Larry > > > > > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points >> out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. This they >> impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the >> proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and >> empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology >> with structural Marxism. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii >> >> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain that >> mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass theory >> of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton Cooley >> (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of the >> self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of perspective >> taking? >> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! >> Greg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work of >> the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots in >> his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas >> Stewart. >> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. >> > >> > Andy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > >> > >> > Charles Bazerman wrote: >> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of influence >> from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective taking? Given >> the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. education, I wouldn't >> be surprised if that work got to Mead as well. Chuck >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Greg Thompson >> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >> russkii >> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" >> >> >> >> >> >>> Mike, >> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of >> Hegel's >> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, self-consciousness >> arises >> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. Here >> is >> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >> first >> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >> must >> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >> proceeds to >> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >> >>> >> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to >> Hegel's >> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). In >> that >> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the >> >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the >> perspective >> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for >> the full >> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as >> fully >> >>> self-conscious. >> >>> >> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's >> inspiration in >> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable >> and, to >> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >> >>> >> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in >> Marx's >> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the >> relations of >> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the >> commodity >> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the individual >> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and rich >> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for >> >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to >> >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not just >> our >> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal kinship, >> i.e. >> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are >> "just >> >>> like us". >> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >> >>> >> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have >> made its >> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at >> all...). >> >>> -greg >> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously >> looking >> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. >> One of >> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just a >> >>> minute to XMCA. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 179 < >> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has >> come >> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its >> own >> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has >> thereby >> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially >> real, >> >>> but sees its own self in the other. >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 180 < >> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >> first >> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >> must >> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >> proceeds to >> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 181 < >> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double sense >> is at >> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, firstly, >> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with >> itself >> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it >> likewise >> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it was >> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the >> other and >> >>> thus lets the other again go free. >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 182 < >> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the action >> of one >> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double >> >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that >> other >> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within >> itself, and >> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first >> does >> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form characteristic >> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing >> independently >> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for >> its own >> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to >> it. The >> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both >> self-consciousnesses. >> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it >> demands >> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, only >> so >> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be >> useless, >> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of both. >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 183 < >> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that >> it is >> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the sense >> that >> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other >> >>> regardless of their distinction. >> >>> >> >>> ? < >> >>> 184 < >> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us >> as the >> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in >> consciousness. >> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating experience], >> holds >> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is self-consciousness >> which >> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this >> interchange of >> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. >> While >> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in being >> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it >> exists >> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it >> cancels >> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the >> >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the other, >> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each >> is to >> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, at >> the >> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They >> >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these >> issues. >> >>> My >> >>> >> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational >> >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point >> of >> >>> view >> >>> >> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to >> interpersonal >> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective >> taking, >> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? >> Empathy >> >>> has to >> >>> >> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian >> traditionS >> >>> we often >> >>> >> >>>> discuss)? >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >> >>>> mike >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss > > >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>> Mike, >> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that is >> >>> referring to >> >>> >> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe this >> >>> question of >> >>> >> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question >> on >> >>> *kinds* >> >>> >> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems >> to >> >>> be >> >>> >> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and >> practice >> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a >> clearing >> >>> for the >> >>> >> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its >> convergence >> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is >> explored >> >>>> in >> >>>> >> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting >> exploring >> >>> notions of >> >>> >> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >> >>>>> identified as themselves >> >>>>> >> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >> >>>> intelligible >> >>>> >> >>>>> but are not themselves >> >>>>> >> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or >> between >> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >> >>>>> >> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of >> understanding, >> >>>> a >> >>>> >> >>>>> distinction between >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities >> with >> >>> which they >> >>> >> >>>>> are concerned. And in >> >>>>> >> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is >> that >> >>> the >> >>> >> >>>>> understanding of identities >> >>>>> >> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be >> 'reduced' >> >>>>> to the understanding of >> >>>>> >> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* >> >>> [multiple] AS >> >>> >> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This >> realm >> >>> of KINDS >> >>> >> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to >> converge >> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Larry Purss >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity and >> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say >> they >> >>> are >> >>> >> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me to >> >>> wondering how >> >>> >> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in the >> >>>> work I >> >>>> >> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >> >>>>>> Piaget. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from >> English >> >>> for >> >>> >> >>>> these >> >>>> >> >>>>>> terms, the cognate >> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase >> for >> >>> "point of >> >>> >> >>>>>> view" is literally that, >> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if >> I >> >>> know what >> >>> >> >>>>>> it >> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >> >>>>>> mike >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> P >> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on >> >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky >> >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am >> asking. >> >>> Perhaps its >> >>> >> >>>>>> just my bad question! >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >> >>> Department of Anthropology >> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >>> Brigham Young University >> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > >> >> >> > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Dec 1 21:08:50 2013 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 00:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Message-ID: Larry, If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the ontological whats the point of and for dialogue?? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? -------- Original message -------- From: Larry Purss Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy Blunden Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Paul, Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* and therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of THIS transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a reification of this ontological *realm*when it??comes into view as this transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how central the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept.? I am attempting to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the medieval called *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed into a confidence in private judgement Ardent suggests, as a consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia and the common good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes transformed from civic *virtues* to realms of power.? For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter of *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of private and public realms of intersubjectivity Larry On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: Larry I agree with althusser because ?once capitalism becomes reified through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the material world it becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the realm for scientific investigations. ?However, I do not believe that that Gramscian/althusserian reification negates the ontological nature of being as such highlighted by heidegger in "being and time" ?the job of the social philosopher is to outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? -------- Original message -------- From: Larry Purss Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Andy Blunden Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Paul, Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the first paragraph. :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxism that dominated many western universities during the 1970s.[citation needed] In contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a science that examined objective structures,[1] and he believed that humanistic, historistic and phenomenological Marxism, which was based on Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology".[2]? So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of rationality.? In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. Larry On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. ?This they impute to species-being. ?Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and empathy. ?The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology with structural Marxism.? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? -------- Original message -------- From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Date: 11/30/2013 ?8:19 PM ?(GMT-05:00) To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of the self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of perspective taking? Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! Greg Sent from my iPhone On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas Stewart. > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Charles Bazerman wrote: >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. education, I wouldn't be? surprised if that work got to Mead as well.? Chuck >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Thompson >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>? >>> Mike, >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of Hegel's >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, self-consciousness arises >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. Here is >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that first >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it must >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon proceeds to >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to Hegel's >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). In that >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the perspective >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for the full >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as fully >>> self-conscious. >>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's inspiration in >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable and, to >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in Marx's >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the relations of >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the commodity >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the individual >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and rich >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not just our >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal kinship, i.e. >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are "just >>> like us". >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have made its >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at all...). >>> -greg >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously looking >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. One of >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just a >>> minute to XMCA. >>> >>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >>> >>> ? < >>> 179 < >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has come >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its own >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has thereby >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially real, >>> but sees its own self in the other. >>> >>> ? < >>> 180 < >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that first >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it must >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby to >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon proceeds to >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >>> >>> ? < >>> 181 < >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double sense is at >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, firstly, >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with itself >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it likewise >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it was >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the other and >>> thus lets the other again go free. >>> >>> ? < >>> 182 < >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the action of one >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that other >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within itself, and >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first does >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form characteristic >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing independently >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for its own >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to it. The >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both self-consciousnesses. >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it demands >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, only so >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be useless, >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of both. >>> >>> ? < >>> 183 < >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that it is >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the sense that >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other >>> regardless of their distinction. >>> >>> ? < >>> 184 < >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us as the >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in consciousness. >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating experience], holds >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is self-consciousness which >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this interchange of >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. While >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in being >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it exists >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it cancels >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the other, >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each is to >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, at the >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>??? >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these issues.?????? >>> My >>>??? >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point of?????? >>> view >>>??? >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to interpersonal >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective taking, >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? Empathy?????? >>> has to >>>??? >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian traditionS?????? >>> we often >>>??? >>>> discuss)? >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss ?????? >>> wrote: >>>??? >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that is???????? >>> referring to >>>??? >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe this???????? >>> question of >>>??? >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question on???????? >>> *kinds* >>>??? >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >>>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems to???????? >>> be >>>??? >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and practice >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of? questioning which opens up a clearing???????? >>> for the >>>??? >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its convergence >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is explored >>>> in >>>>????? >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting exploring???????? >>> notions of >>>??? >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >>>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >>>>> identified as themselves >>>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >>>> intelligible >>>>????? >>>>> but are not themselves >>>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or between >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >>>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of understanding, >>>> a >>>>????? >>>>> distinction between >>>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities with???????? >>> which they >>>??? >>>>> are concerned. And in >>>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is that???????? >>> the >>>??? >>>>> understanding of identities >>>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be 'reduced' >>>>> to the understanding of >>>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences*???????? >>> [multiple] AS >>>??? >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This realm???????? >>> of KINDS >>>??? >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to converge >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >>>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >>>>> >>>>> Larry Purss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>??????? >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity and >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say they?????????? >>> are >>>??? >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me to?????????? >>> wondering how >>>??? >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in the >>>> work I >>>>????? >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >>>>>> Piaget. >>>>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from English?????????? >>> for >>>??? >>>> these >>>>????? >>>>>> terms, the cognate >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase for?????????? >>> "point of >>>??? >>>>>> view" is literally that, >>>>>> tochka-point? zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >>>>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if I?????????? >>> know what >>>??? >>>>>> it >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> P >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am asking.?????????? >>> Perhaps its >>>??? >>>>>> just my bad question! >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 2 07:48:21 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 07:48:21 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, The point may be to *see through* or go *beyond* the ideological AS reified *objectivity* and *return* to notions of *humanity* as emerging WITHIN dialogue Here is a free book that may be of interest in this regard. It develops a dialogical perspective on resistance in Rio https://mymail.vsb.bc.ca/OWA/?ae=Item&t=IPM.Note&id=RgAAAABcrMEZpb%2b8RJLCMeBKJvxxBwDeh%2bQItXNbTpnLOftNk%2bwXAAAAUCKsAAB%2fylgzNh6DSbgzmJ7GjNoSAACiyLfjAAAJ and is published by the UN On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Larry, > > If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the ontological > whats the point of and for dialogue? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Larry Purss > Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy > Blunden > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po > russkii > > > Paul, > Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* and > therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. > However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of THIS > transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a reification > of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as this > transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] > > Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how central the > question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I am attempting to > *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the medieval called > *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed into a confidence in > private judgement > Ardent suggests, as a consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia > and the common good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes > transformed from civic *virtues* to realms of power. > For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter of > *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT > INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. > > This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of private and > public realms of intersubjectivity > Larry > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes reified >> through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the material world it >> becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the realm for scientific >> investigations. However, I do not believe that that Gramscian/althusserian >> reification negates the ontological nature of being as such highlighted by >> heidegger in "being and time" the job of the social philosopher is to >> outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Larry Purss >> Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) >> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity" >> Cc: Andy Blunden >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >> russkii >> >> >> Paul, >> Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of >> *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. >> I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the >> first paragraph. >> >> :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxismthat dominated many western universities during the 1970s. >> [*citation needed >> *] In contrast >> to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a sciencethat examined objective structures, >> [1] and he >> believed that humanistic , >> historistic and phenomenological >> Marxism , which was based on >> Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". >> [2] >> >> So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other >> levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of >> rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not >> merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific >> *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and >> phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. >> I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of >> *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* >> humanistic ideology. >> Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of >> heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. >> Larry >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> >>> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points >>> out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. This they >>> impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the >>> proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and >>> empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology >>> with structural Marxism. >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>> russkii >>> >>> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain that >>> mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass theory >>> of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton Cooley >>> (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of the >>> self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of perspective >>> taking? >>> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! >>> Greg >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work of >>> the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots in >>> his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas >>> Stewart. >>> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. >>> > >>> > Andy >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > *Andy Blunden* >>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> > >>> > >>> > Charles Bazerman wrote: >>> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of >>> influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective >>> taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. >>> education, I wouldn't be surprised if that work got to Mead as well. Chuck >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: Greg Thompson >>> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>> russkii >>> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, >>> Activity" >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of >>> Hegel's >>> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, self-consciousness >>> arises >>> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. >>> Here is >>> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >>> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >>> first >>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >>> must >>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby >>> to >>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>> proceeds to >>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >>> >>> >>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to >>> Hegel's >>> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). In >>> that >>> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the >>> >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the >>> perspective >>> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for >>> the full >>> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as >>> fully >>> >>> self-conscious. >>> >>> >>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's >>> inspiration in >>> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable >>> and, to >>> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >>> >>> >>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in >>> Marx's >>> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the >>> relations of >>> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the >>> commodity >>> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the individual >>> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and >>> rich >>> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for >>> >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to >>> >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not just >>> our >>> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal kinship, >>> i.e. >>> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >>> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are >>> "just >>> >>> like us". >>> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >>> >>> >>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have >>> made its >>> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at >>> all...). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously >>> looking >>> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. >>> One of >>> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just a >>> >>> minute to XMCA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 179 < >>> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it >>> has come >>> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost >>> its own >>> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has >>> thereby >>> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially >>> real, >>> >>> but sees its own self in the other. >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 180 < >>> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >>> first >>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >>> must >>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby >>> to >>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>> proceeds to >>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 181 < >>> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double >>> sense is at >>> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, firstly, >>> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with >>> itself >>> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it >>> likewise >>> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it >>> was >>> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the >>> other and >>> >>> thus lets the other again go free. >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 182 < >>> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >>> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the action >>> of one >>> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double >>> >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that >>> other >>> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within >>> itself, and >>> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first >>> does >>> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form characteristic >>> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing >>> independently >>> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for >>> its own >>> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to >>> it. The >>> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both >>> self-consciousnesses. >>> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it >>> demands >>> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, >>> only so >>> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be >>> useless, >>> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of both. >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 183 < >>> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that >>> it is >>> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the sense >>> that >>> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other >>> >>> regardless of their distinction. >>> >>> >>> >>> ? < >>> >>> 184 < >>> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us >>> as the >>> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in >>> consciousness. >>> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating >>> experience], holds >>> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is self-consciousness >>> which >>> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this >>> interchange of >>> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. >>> While >>> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in >>> being >>> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it >>> exists >>> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >>> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >>> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it >>> cancels >>> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the >>> >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the other, >>> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each >>> is to >>> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, >>> at the >>> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They >>> >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these >>> issues. >>> >>> My >>> >>> >>> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational >>> >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point >>> of >>> >>> view >>> >>> >>> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to >>> interpersonal >>> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective >>> taking, >>> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? >>> Empathy >>> >>> has to >>> >>> >>> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian >>> traditionS >>> >>> we often >>> >>> >>> >>>> discuss)? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >>> >>>> mike >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss >> > >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Mike, >>> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that is >>> >>> referring to >>> >>> >>> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe >>> this >>> >>> question of >>> >>> >>> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question >>> on >>> >>> *kinds* >>> >>> >>> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems >>> to >>> >>> be >>> >>> >>> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and >>> practice >>> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a >>> clearing >>> >>> for the >>> >>> >>> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its >>> convergence >>> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is >>> explored >>> >>>> in >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting >>> exploring >>> >>> notions of >>> >>> >>> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >>> >>>>> identified as themselves >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >>> >>>> intelligible >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> but are not themselves >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or >>> between >>> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of >>> understanding, >>> >>>> a >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> distinction between >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities >>> with >>> >>> which they >>> >>> >>> >>>>> are concerned. And in >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is >>> that >>> >>> the >>> >>> >>> >>>>> understanding of identities >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be >>> 'reduced' >>> >>>>> to the understanding of >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* >>> >>> [multiple] AS >>> >>> >>> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This >>> realm >>> >>> of KINDS >>> >>> >>> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to >>> converge >>> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Larry Purss >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity and >>> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say >>> they >>> >>> are >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me to >>> >>> wondering how >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in >>> the >>> >>>> work I >>> >>>> >>> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >>> >>>>>> Piaget. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from >>> English >>> >>> for >>> >>> >>> >>>> these >>> >>>> >>> >>>>>> terms, the cognate >>> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase >>> for >>> >>> "point of >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> view" is literally that, >>> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if >>> I >>> >>> know what >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> it >>> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >>> >>>>>> mike >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> P >>> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on >>> >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky >>> >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am >>> asking. >>> >>> Perhaps its >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> just my bad question! >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of Anthropology >>> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> >>> Brigham Young University >>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 2 07:53:46 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 07:53:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a direct link to the book http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002238/223830E.pdf Sandra has worked with Mike and been discussed on XMCA previously Larry On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Paul, > The point may be to *see through* or go *beyond* the ideological AS > reified *objectivity* and *return* to notions of *humanity* as emerging > WITHIN dialogue > > Here is a free book that may be of interest in this regard. It develops a > dialogical perspective on resistance in Rio > > > https://mymail.vsb.bc.ca/OWA/?ae=Item&t=IPM.Note&id=RgAAAABcrMEZpb%2b8RJLCMeBKJvxxBwDeh%2bQItXNbTpnLOftNk%2bwXAAAAUCKsAAB%2fylgzNh6DSbgzmJ7GjNoSAACiyLfjAAAJ > > and is published by the UN > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Larry, >> >> If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the >> ontological whats the point of and for dialogue? >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Larry Purss >> Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy >> Blunden >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >> russkii >> >> >> Paul, >> Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* and >> therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. >> However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of THIS >> transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a reification >> of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as this >> transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] >> >> Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how central >> the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I am attempting >> to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the medieval called >> *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed into a confidence in >> private judgement >> Ardent suggests, as a consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia >> and the common good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes >> transformed from civic *virtues* to realms of power. >> For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter of >> *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT >> INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. >> >> This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of private >> and public realms of intersubjectivity >> Larry >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> >>> Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes reified >>> through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the material world it >>> becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the realm for scientific >>> investigations. However, I do not believe that that Gramscian/althusserian >>> reification negates the ontological nature of being as such highlighted by >>> heidegger in "being and time" the job of the social philosopher is to >>> outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Larry Purss >>> Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, >>> Culture, Activity" >>> Cc: Andy Blunden >>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>> russkii >>> >>> >>> Paul, >>> Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level of >>> *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. >>> I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is the >>> first paragraph. >>> >>> :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxismthat dominated many western universities during the 1970s. >>> [*citation needed >>> *] In contrast >>> to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was a sciencethat examined objective structures, >>> [1] and >>> he believed that humanistic, >>> historistic and phenomenological >>> Marxism , which was based on >>> Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". >>> [2] >>> >>> So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other >>> levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific level of >>> rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality that are not >>> merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the scientific >>> *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and >>> phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. >>> I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my understanding of >>> *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely *pre-scientific* >>> humanistic ideology. >>> Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of >>> heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger points >>>> out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. This they >>>> impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I believe is the >>>> proper place to start if we want to understand intersubjectivity and >>>> empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize heideggerian phenomenology >>>> with structural Marxism. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>> President >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) >>>> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>>> russkii >>>> >>>> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain >>>> that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking glass >>>> theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from Charles Horton >>>> Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the looking glass theory of >>>> the self). Is the looking glass theory of the self an example of >>>> perspective taking? >>>> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the work >>>> of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the Scots >>>> in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald and Douglas >>>> Stewart. >>>> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. >>>> > >>>> > Andy >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> > *Andy Blunden* >>>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Charles Bazerman wrote: >>>> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of >>>> influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on perspective >>>> taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. >>>> education, I wouldn't be surprised if that work got to Mead as well. Chuck >>>> >> >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> From: Greg Thompson >>>> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >>>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>>> russkii >>>> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Mike, >>>> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part of >>>> Hegel's >>>> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, >>>> self-consciousness arises >>>> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. >>>> Here is >>>> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >>>> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >>>> first >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >>>> must >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby >>>> to >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>>> proceeds to >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >>>> >>> >>>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to >>>> Hegel's >>>> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). >>>> In that >>>> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes the >>>> >>> perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take the >>>> perspective >>>> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow for >>>> the full >>>> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects as >>>> fully >>>> >>> self-conscious. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's >>>> inspiration in >>>> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both debatable >>>> and, to >>>> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be found in >>>> Marx's >>>> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the >>>> relations of >>>> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on the >>>> commodity >>>> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the >>>> individual >>>> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full and >>>> rich >>>> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools for >>>> >>> accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is supposed to >>>> >>> reconcile - bringing all people into a deep appreciation of not >>>> just our >>>> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal >>>> kinship, i.e. >>>> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >>>> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people are >>>> "just >>>> >>> like us". >>>> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would have >>>> made its >>>> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at >>>> all...). >>>> >>> -greg >>>> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been seriously >>>> looking >>>> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. >>>> One of >>>> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in just >>>> a >>>> >>> minute to XMCA. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 179 < >>>> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it >>>> has come >>>> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost >>>> its own >>>> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it has >>>> thereby >>>> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as >>>> essentially real, >>>> >>> but sees its own self in the other. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 180 < >>>> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of that >>>> first >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. First, it >>>> must >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order thereby >>>> to >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>>> proceeds to >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 181 < >>>> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double >>>> sense is at >>>> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, >>>> firstly, >>>> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one with >>>> itself >>>> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, it >>>> likewise >>>> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for it >>>> was >>>> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in the >>>> other and >>>> >>> thus lets the other again go free. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 182 < >>>> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >>>> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the >>>> action of one >>>> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the double >>>> >>> significance of being at once its own action and the action of that >>>> other >>>> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within >>>> itself, and >>>> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The first >>>> does >>>> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form >>>> characteristic >>>> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing >>>> independently >>>> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything for >>>> its own >>>> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does to >>>> it. The >>>> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both >>>> self-consciousnesses. >>>> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does what it >>>> demands >>>> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it does, >>>> only so >>>> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would be >>>> useless, >>>> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of >>>> both. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 183 < >>>> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense that >>>> it is >>>> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the >>>> sense that >>>> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the other >>>> >>> regardless of their distinction. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 184 < >>>> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came before us >>>> as the >>>> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in >>>> consciousness. >>>> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating >>>> experience], holds >>>> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is >>>> self-consciousness which >>>> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this >>>> interchange of >>>> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. >>>> While >>>> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, in >>>> being >>>> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within itself, it >>>> exists >>>> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >>>> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >>>> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it >>>> cancels >>>> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in the >>>> >>> self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to the >>>> other, >>>> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and each >>>> is to >>>> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, which, >>>> at the >>>> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. They >>>> >>> recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these >>>> issues. >>>> >>> My >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and relational >>>> >>>> perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or Bakhtinian point >>>> of >>>> >>> view >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to >>>> interpersonal >>>> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological perspective >>>> taking, >>>> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? >>>> Empathy >>>> >>> has to >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian >>>> traditionS >>>> >>> we often >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> discuss)? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss >>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that >>>> is >>>> >>> referring to >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe >>>> this >>>> >>> question of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other question >>>> on >>>> >>> *kinds* >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which seems >>>> to >>>> >>> be >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory and >>>> practice >>>> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a >>>> clearing >>>> >>> for the >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its >>>> convergence >>>> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic is >>>> explored >>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting >>>> exploring >>>> >>> notions of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >>>> >>>>> identified as themselves >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >>>> >>>> intelligible >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> but are not themselves >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical or >>>> between >>>> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> distinction between >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities >>>> with >>>> >>> which they >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> are concerned. And in >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is >>>> that >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> understanding of identities >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot be >>>> 'reduced' >>>> >>>>> to the understanding of >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* >>>> >>> [multiple] AS >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This >>>> realm >>>> >>> of KINDS >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity to >>>> converge >>>> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Larry Purss >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of intersubjectivity >>>> and >>>> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say >>>> they >>>> >>> are >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me >>>> to >>>> >>> wondering how >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited in >>>> the >>>> >>>> work I >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >>>> >>>>>> Piaget. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from >>>> English >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> these >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> terms, the cognate >>>> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase >>>> for >>>> >>> "point of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> view" is literally that, >>>> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if >>>> I >>>> >>> know what >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >>>> >>>>>> mike >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> P >>>> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back on >>>> >>>>>> intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky >>>> >>>>>> refs but they do not seem to go to the question I am >>>> asking. >>>> >>> Perhaps its >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> just my bad question! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>>> >>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org Mon Dec 2 08:02:13 2013 From: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org (ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 10:02:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Tue Dec 3 16:29:14 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:29:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01cef087$dd07a500$9716ef00$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Larry, Deeply interested in this Unesco work you mention. However, am not authorized to view it. It there any way to get a link to pdf? Valerie -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:54 AM To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii This is a direct link to the book http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002238/223830E.pdf Sandra has worked with Mike and been discussed on XMCA previously Larry On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Paul, > The point may be to *see through* or go *beyond* the ideological AS > reified *objectivity* and *return* to notions of *humanity* as > emerging WITHIN dialogue > > Here is a free book that may be of interest in this regard. It > develops a dialogical perspective on resistance in Rio > > > https://mymail.vsb.bc.ca/OWA/?ae=Item&t=IPM.Note&id=RgAAAABcrMEZpb%2b8 > RJLCMeBKJvxxBwDeh%2bQItXNbTpnLOftNk%2bwXAAAAUCKsAAB%2fylgzNh6DSbgzmJ7G > jNoSAACiyLfjAAAJ > > and is published by the UN > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Larry, >> >> If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the >> ontological whats the point of and for dialogue? >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Larry Purss >> Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) >> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy >> Blunden >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, >> po russkii >> >> >> Paul, >> Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* >> and therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. >> However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of >> THIS transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a >> reification of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as >> this transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] >> >> Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how >> central the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I >> am attempting to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the >> medieval called *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed >> into a confidence in private judgement Ardent suggests, as a >> consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia and the common >> good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes transformed >> from civic *virtues* to realms of power. >> For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter >> of >> *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT >> INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. >> >> This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of >> private and public realms of intersubjectivity Larry >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> >>> Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes >>> reified through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the >>> material world it becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the >>> realm for scientific investigations. However, I do not believe that >>> that Gramscian/althusserian reification negates the ontological >>> nature of being as such highlighted by heidegger in "being and time" >>> the job of the social philosopher is to outline where ideology attempts to be ontology and correct it. >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Larry Purss >>> Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, >>> Culture, Activity" >>> Cc: Andy Blunden >>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, >>> po russkii >>> >>> >>> Paul, >>> Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level >>> of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. >>> I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is >>> the first paragraph. >>> >>> :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic Marxismthat dominated many western universities during the 1970s. >>> [*citation needed >>> *] In >>> contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was >>> a sciencethat examined >>> objective structures, [1] >>> and he >>> believed that >>> humanistic, >>> historistic and >>> phenomenological Marxism >>> , which was based on Marx's early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". >>> [2] >>> >>> So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other >>> levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific >>> level of rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality >>> that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the >>> scientific >>> *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and >>> phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. >>> I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my >>> understanding of >>> *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely >>> *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. >>> Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of >>> heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger >>>> points out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. >>>> This they impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I >>>> believe is the proper place to start if we want to understand >>>> intersubjectivity and empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize >>>> heideggerian phenomenology with structural Marxism. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>> President >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) >>>> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po >>>> russkii >>>> >>>> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain >>>> that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking >>>> glass theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from >>>> Charles Horton Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the >>>> looking glass theory of the self). Is the looking glass theory of >>>> the self an example of perspective taking? >>>> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the >>>> > work >>>> of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the >>>> Scots in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald >>>> and Douglas Stewart. >>>> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on Hegel. >>>> > >>>> > Andy >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ----- >>>> > *Andy Blunden* >>>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Charles Bazerman wrote: >>>> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of >>>> influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on >>>> perspective taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment on U.S. >>>> education, I wouldn't be surprised if that work got to Mead as >>>> well. Chuck >>>> >> >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> From: Greg Thompson >>>> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm >>>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, >>>> >> po >>>> russkii >>>> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, >>>> Activity" >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Mike, >>>> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part >>>> >>> of >>>> Hegel's >>>> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, >>>> self-consciousness arises >>>> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. >>>> Here is >>>> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: >>>> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of >>>> >>> that >>>> first >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. >>>> >>> First, it >>>> must >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order >>>> >>> thereby >>>> to >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>>> proceeds to >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." >>>> >>> >>>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to >>>> Hegel's >>>> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). >>>> In that >>>> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes >>>> >>> the perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take >>>> >>> the >>>> perspective >>>> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow >>>> >>> for >>>> the full >>>> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects >>>> >>> as >>>> fully >>>> >>> self-conscious. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's >>>> inspiration in >>>> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both >>>> >>> debatable >>>> and, to >>>> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be >>>> >>> found in >>>> Marx's >>>> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the >>>> relations of >>>> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on >>>> >>> the >>>> commodity >>>> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the >>>> individual >>>> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full >>>> >>> and >>>> rich >>>> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools >>>> >>> for accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is >>>> >>> supposed to reconcile - bringing all people into a deep >>>> >>> appreciation of not >>>> just our >>>> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal >>>> kinship, i.e. >>>> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put it. >>>> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people >>>> >>> are >>>> "just >>>> >>> like us". >>>> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would >>>> >>> have >>>> made its >>>> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at >>>> all...). >>>> >>> -greg >>>> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been >>>> >>> seriously >>>> looking >>>> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason Throop. >>>> One of >>>> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in >>>> >>> just >>>> a >>>> >>> minute to XMCA. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 179 < >>>> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; >>>> >>> it >>>> has come >>>> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has >>>> >>> lost >>>> its own >>>> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it >>>> >>> has >>>> thereby >>>> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as >>>> essentially real, >>>> >>> but sees its own self in the other. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 180 < >>>> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of >>>> >>> that >>>> first >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. >>>> >>> First, it >>>> must >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order >>>> >>> thereby >>>> to >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon >>>> proceeds to >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 181 < >>>> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double >>>> sense is at >>>> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, >>>> firstly, >>>> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one >>>> >>> with >>>> itself >>>> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, >>>> >>> it >>>> likewise >>>> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for >>>> >>> it >>>> was >>>> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in >>>> >>> the >>>> other and >>>> >>> thus lets the other again go free. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 182 < >>>> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another >>>> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the >>>> action of one >>>> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the >>>> >>> double significance of being at once its own action and the >>>> >>> action of that >>>> other >>>> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within >>>> itself, and >>>> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The >>>> >>> first >>>> does >>>> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form >>>> characteristic >>>> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing >>>> independently >>>> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything >>>> >>> for >>>> its own >>>> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does >>>> >>> to >>>> it. The >>>> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both >>>> self-consciousnesses. >>>> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does >>>> >>> what it >>>> demands >>>> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it >>>> >>> does, >>>> only so >>>> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would >>>> >>> be >>>> useless, >>>> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of >>>> both. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 183 < >>>> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense >>>> >>> that >>>> it is >>>> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the >>>> sense that >>>> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the >>>> >>> other regardless of their distinction. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ? < >>>> >>> 184 < >>>> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came >>>> >>> before us >>>> as the >>>> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in >>>> consciousness. >>>> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating >>>> experience], holds >>>> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is >>>> self-consciousness which >>>> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this >>>> interchange of >>>> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the opposite. >>>> While >>>> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, >>>> >>> in >>>> being >>>> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within >>>> >>> itself, it >>>> exists >>>> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. >>>> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another >>>> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when >>>> >>> it >>>> cancels >>>> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in >>>> >>> the self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to >>>> >>> the >>>> other, >>>> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and >>>> >>> each >>>> is to >>>> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, >>>> >>> which, >>>> at the >>>> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. >>>> >>> They recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole >>>> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these >>>> issues. >>>> >>> My >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and >>>> >>>> relational perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or >>>> >>>> Bakhtinian point >>>> of >>>> >>> view >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to >>>> interpersonal >>>> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological >>>> >>>> perspective >>>> taking, >>>> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? >>>> Empathy >>>> >>> has to >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian >>>> traditionS >>>> >>> we often >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> discuss)? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that >>>> is >>>> >>> referring to >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe >>>> this >>>> >>> question of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other >>>> >>>>> question >>>> on >>>> >>> *kinds* >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which >>>> >>>>> seems >>>> to >>>> >>> be >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory >>>> >>>>> and >>>> practice >>>> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a >>>> clearing >>>> >>> for the >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its >>>> convergence >>>> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic >>>> >>>>> is >>>> explored >>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting >>>> exploring >>>> >>> notions of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between 'goings-on' >>>> >>>>> identified as themselves >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made >>>> >>>> intelligible >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> but are not themselves >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical >>>> >>>>> or >>>> between >>>> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of >>>> understanding, >>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> distinction between >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities >>>> with >>>> >>> which they >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> are concerned. And in >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is >>>> that >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> understanding of identities >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot >>>> >>>>> be >>>> 'reduced' >>>> >>>>> to the understanding of >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* >>>> >>> [multiple] AS >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This >>>> realm >>>> >>> of KINDS >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity >>>> >>>>> to >>>> converge >>>> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Larry Purss >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole >>>> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of >>>> >>>>>> intersubjectivity >>>> and >>>> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say >>>> they >>>> >>> are >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me >>>> to >>>> >>> wondering how >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited >>>> >>>>>> in >>>> the >>>> >>>> work I >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and >>>> >>>>>> Piaget. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from >>>> English >>>> >>> for >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> these >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> terms, the cognate >>>> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase >>>> for >>>> >>> "point of >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> view" is literally that, >>>> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if >>>> I >>>> >>> know what >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? >>>> >>>>>> mike >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> P >>>> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back >>>> >>>>>> on intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky refs but they do >>>> >>>>>> not seem to go to the question I am >>>> asking. >>>> >>> Perhaps its >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> just my bad question! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>>> >>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Tue Dec 3 17:32:09 2013 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:32:09 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: <006e01cef087$dd07a500$9716ef00$@shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <006e01cef087$dd07a500$9716ef00$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: This link should work: http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002238/223830E.pdf Cheers, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Building 902, Room 159 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 On 4 December 2013 11:29, valerie A. Wilkinson wrote: > Larry, > Deeply interested in this Unesco work you mention. > However, am not authorized to view it. > It there any way to get a link to pdf? > Valerie > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:54 AM > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii > > This is a direct link to the book > http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002238/223830E.pdf< > https://mymail.vsb. > > bc.ca/OWA/redir.aspx?C=Y0ABaXqqBUOHY_44FHGENQ5-WDkNw9AIqBadDtF8Qdai01f0pI1LB > > C7DW77zb0q1_MeI8nlZ7so.&URL=http%3a%2f%2funesdoc.unesco.org%2fimages%2f0022% > 2f002238%2f223830E.pdf> > > Sandra has worked with Mike and been discussed on XMCA previously > > Larry > > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Paul, > > The point may be to *see through* or go *beyond* the ideological AS > > reified *objectivity* and *return* to notions of *humanity* as > > emerging WITHIN dialogue > > > > Here is a free book that may be of interest in this regard. It > > develops a dialogical perspective on resistance in Rio > > > > > > https://mymail.vsb.bc.ca/OWA/?ae=Item&t=IPM.Note&id=RgAAAABcrMEZpb%2b8 > > RJLCMeBKJvxxBwDeh%2bQItXNbTpnLOftNk%2bwXAAAAUCKsAAB%2fylgzNh6DSbgzmJ7G > > jNoSAACiyLfjAAAJ > > > > and is published by the UN > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> > >> If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the > >> ontological whats the point of and for dialogue? > >> > >> > >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >> President > >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >> www.mocombeian.com > >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -------- Original message -------- > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) > >> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" > >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy > >> Blunden > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >> po russkii > >> > >> > >> Paul, > >> Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* > >> and therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. > >> However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of > >> THIS transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a > >> reification of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as > >> this transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] > >> > >> Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how > >> central the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I > >> am attempting to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the > >> medieval called *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed > >> into a confidence in private judgement Ardent suggests, as a > >> consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia and the common > >> good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes transformed > >> from civic *virtues* to realms of power. > >> For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter > >> of > >> *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT > >> INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. > >> > >> This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of > >> private and public realms of intersubjectivity Larry > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes > >>> reified through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the > >>> material world it becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the > >>> realm for scientific investigations. However, I do not believe that > >>> that Gramscian/althusserian reification negates the ontological > >>> nature of being as such highlighted by heidegger in "being and time" > >>> the job of the social philosopher is to outline where ideology attempts > to be ontology and correct it. > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>> President > >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>> www.mocombeian.com > >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------- Original message -------- > >>> From: Larry Purss > >>> Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) > >>> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, > >>> Culture, Activity" > >>> Cc: Andy Blunden > >>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >>> po russkii > >>> > >>> > >>> Paul, > >>> Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level > >>> of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. > >>> I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is > >>> the first paragraph. > >>> > >>> :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic > Marxismthat dominated many > western universities during the 1970s. > >>> [*citation needed > >>> *] In > >>> contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was > >>> a sciencethat examined > >>> objective structures, [1] > >>> and he > >>> believed that > >>> humanistic, > >>> historistic and > >>> phenomenological Marxism > >>> , which was based on Marx's > early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". > >>> [2] > >>> > >>> So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other > >>> levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific > >>> level of rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality > >>> that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the > >>> scientific > >>> *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and > >>> phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. > >>> I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my > >>> understanding of > >>> *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely > >>> *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. > >>> Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of > >>> heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger > >>>> points out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. > >>>> This they impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I > >>>> believe is the proper place to start if we want to understand > >>>> intersubjectivity and empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize > >>>> heideggerian phenomenology with structural Marxism. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>>> President > >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>>> www.mocombeian.com > >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>>> > >>>> -------- Original message -------- > >>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >>>> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) > >>>> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > >>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po > >>>> russkii > >>>> > >>>> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain > >>>> that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking > >>>> glass theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from > >>>> Charles Horton Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the > >>>> looking glass theory of the self). Is the looking glass theory of > >>>> the self an example of perspective taking? > >>>> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! > >>>> Greg > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the > >>>> > work > >>>> of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the > >>>> Scots in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald > >>>> and Douglas Stewart. > >>>> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on > Hegel. > >>>> > > >>>> > Andy > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> ----- > >>>> > *Andy Blunden* > >>>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Charles Bazerman wrote: > >>>> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of > >>>> influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on > >>>> perspective taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment > on U.S. > >>>> education, I wouldn't be surprised if that work got to Mead as > >>>> well. Chuck > >>>> >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> From: Greg Thompson > >>>> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm > >>>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >>>> >> po > >>>> russkii > >>>> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, > >>>> Activity" > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> Mike, > >>>> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part > >>>> >>> of > >>>> Hegel's > >>>> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, > >>>> self-consciousness arises > >>>> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. > >>>> Here is > >>>> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: > >>>> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of > >>>> >>> that > >>>> first > >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. > >>>> >>> First, it > >>>> must > >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order > >>>> >>> thereby > >>>> to > >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > >>>> proceeds to > >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to > >>>> Hegel's > >>>> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). > >>>> In that > >>>> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes > >>>> >>> the perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take > >>>> >>> the > >>>> perspective > >>>> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow > >>>> >>> for > >>>> the full > >>>> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects > >>>> >>> as > >>>> fully > >>>> >>> self-conscious. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's > >>>> inspiration in > >>>> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both > >>>> >>> debatable > >>>> and, to > >>>> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be > >>>> >>> found in > >>>> Marx's > >>>> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the > >>>> relations of > >>>> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on > >>>> >>> the > >>>> commodity > >>>> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the > >>>> individual > >>>> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full > >>>> >>> and > >>>> rich > >>>> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools > >>>> >>> for accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is > >>>> >>> supposed to reconcile - bringing all people into a deep > >>>> >>> appreciation of not > >>>> just our > >>>> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal > >>>> kinship, i.e. > >>>> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put > it. > >>>> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people > >>>> >>> are > >>>> "just > >>>> >>> like us". > >>>> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would > >>>> >>> have > >>>> made its > >>>> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at > >>>> all...). > >>>> >>> -greg > >>>> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been > >>>> >>> seriously > >>>> looking > >>>> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason > Throop. > >>>> One of > >>>> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in > >>>> >>> just > >>>> a > >>>> >>> minute to XMCA. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 179 < > >>>> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; > >>>> >>> it > >>>> has come > >>>> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has > >>>> >>> lost > >>>> its own > >>>> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it > >>>> >>> has > >>>> thereby > >>>> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as > >>>> essentially real, > >>>> >>> but sees its own self in the other. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 180 < > >>>> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of > >>>> >>> that > >>>> first > >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. > >>>> >>> First, it > >>>> must > >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order > >>>> >>> thereby > >>>> to > >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > >>>> proceeds to > >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 181 < > >>>> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double > >>>> sense is at > >>>> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, > >>>> firstly, > >>>> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one > >>>> >>> with > >>>> itself > >>>> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, > >>>> >>> it > >>>> likewise > >>>> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for > >>>> >>> it > >>>> was > >>>> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in > >>>> >>> the > >>>> other and > >>>> >>> thus lets the other again go free. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 182 < > >>>> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another > >>>> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the > >>>> action of one > >>>> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the > >>>> >>> double significance of being at once its own action and the > >>>> >>> action of that > >>>> other > >>>> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within > >>>> itself, and > >>>> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The > >>>> >>> first > >>>> does > >>>> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form > >>>> characteristic > >>>> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing > >>>> independently > >>>> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything > >>>> >>> for > >>>> its own > >>>> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does > >>>> >>> to > >>>> it. The > >>>> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both > >>>> self-consciousnesses. > >>>> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does > >>>> >>> what it > >>>> demands > >>>> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it > >>>> >>> does, > >>>> only so > >>>> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would > >>>> >>> be > >>>> useless, > >>>> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of > >>>> both. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 183 < > >>>> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense > >>>> >>> that > >>>> it is > >>>> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the > >>>> sense that > >>>> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the > >>>> >>> other regardless of their distinction. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 184 < > >>>> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came > >>>> >>> before us > >>>> as the > >>>> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in > >>>> consciousness. > >>>> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating > >>>> experience], holds > >>>> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is > >>>> self-consciousness which > >>>> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this > >>>> interchange of > >>>> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the > opposite. > >>>> While > >>>> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, > >>>> >>> in > >>>> being > >>>> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within > >>>> >>> itself, it > >>>> exists > >>>> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. > >>>> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another > >>>> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when > >>>> >>> it > >>>> cancels > >>>> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in > >>>> >>> the self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to > >>>> >>> the > >>>> other, > >>>> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and > >>>> >>> each > >>>> is to > >>>> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, > >>>> >>> which, > >>>> at the > >>>> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. > >>>> >>> They recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole > >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these > >>>> issues. > >>>> >>> My > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and > >>>> >>>> relational perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or > >>>> >>>> Bakhtinian point > >>>> of > >>>> >>> view > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to > >>>> interpersonal > >>>> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological > >>>> >>>> perspective > >>>> taking, > >>>> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? > >>>> Empathy > >>>> >>> has to > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian > >>>> traditionS > >>>> >>> we often > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> discuss)? > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! > >>>> >>>> mike > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss > >>>> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> >>> wrote: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> Mike, > >>>> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that > >>>> is > >>>> >>> referring to > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe > >>>> this > >>>> >>> question of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other > >>>> >>>>> question > >>>> on > >>>> >>> *kinds* > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which > >>>> >>>>> seems > >>>> to > >>>> >>> be > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory > >>>> >>>>> and > >>>> practice > >>>> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a > >>>> clearing > >>>> >>> for the > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its > >>>> convergence > >>>> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic > >>>> >>>>> is > >>>> explored > >>>> >>>> in > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting > >>>> exploring > >>>> >>> notions of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between > 'goings-on' > >>>> >>>>> identified as themselves > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made > >>>> >>>> intelligible > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> but are not themselves > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical > >>>> >>>>> or > >>>> between > >>>> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of > >>>> understanding, > >>>> >>>> a > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> distinction between > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities > >>>> with > >>>> >>> which they > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> are concerned. And in > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is > >>>> that > >>>> >>> the > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> understanding of identities > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot > >>>> >>>>> be > >>>> 'reduced' > >>>> >>>>> to the understanding of > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* > >>>> >>> [multiple] AS > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This > >>>> realm > >>>> >>> of KINDS > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity > >>>> >>>>> to > >>>> converge > >>>> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Larry Purss > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of > >>>> >>>>>> intersubjectivity > >>>> and > >>>> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say > >>>> they > >>>> >>> are > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me > >>>> to > >>>> >>> wondering how > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited > >>>> >>>>>> in > >>>> the > >>>> >>>> work I > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and > >>>> >>>>>> Piaget. > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from > >>>> English > >>>> >>> for > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> these > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>>> terms, the cognate > >>>> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase > >>>> for > >>>> >>> "point of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> view" is literally that, > >>>> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if > >>>> I > >>>> >>> know what > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> it > >>>> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? > >>>> >>>>>> mike > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> P > >>>> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back > >>>> >>>>>> on intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky refs but they do > >>>> >>>>>> not seem to go to the question I am > >>>> asking. > >>>> >>> Perhaps its > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> just my bad question! > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> -- > >>>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor > >>>> >>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> >>> Brigham Young University > >>>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 18:45:36 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:45:36 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii In-Reply-To: <006e01cef087$dd07a500$9716ef00$@shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <006e01cef087$dd07a500$9716ef00$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Here is a copy from my hard drive. I hope this comes through the webLarry On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:29 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > Larry, > Deeply interested in this Unesco work you mention. > However, am not authorized to view it. > It there any way to get a link to pdf? > Valerie > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:54 AM > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po russkii > > This is a direct link to the book > http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002238/223830E.pdf< > https://mymail.vsb. > > bc.ca/OWA/redir.aspx?C=Y0ABaXqqBUOHY_44FHGENQ5-WDkNw9AIqBadDtF8Qdai01f0pI1LB > > C7DW77zb0q1_MeI8nlZ7so.&URL=http%3a%2f%2funesdoc.unesco.org%2fimages%2f0022% > 2f002238%2f223830E.pdf> > > Sandra has worked with Mike and been discussed on XMCA previously > > Larry > > > On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Paul, > > The point may be to *see through* or go *beyond* the ideological AS > > reified *objectivity* and *return* to notions of *humanity* as > > emerging WITHIN dialogue > > > > Here is a free book that may be of interest in this regard. It > > develops a dialogical perspective on resistance in Rio > > > > > > https://mymail.vsb.bc.ca/OWA/?ae=Item&t=IPM.Note&id=RgAAAABcrMEZpb%2b8 > > RJLCMeBKJvxxBwDeh%2bQItXNbTpnLOftNk%2bwXAAAAUCKsAAB%2fylgzNh6DSbgzmJ7G > > jNoSAACiyLfjAAAJ > > > > and is published by the UN > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> > >> If the ideological, via reification, becomes tantamount to the > >> ontological whats the point of and for dialogue? > >> > >> > >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >> President > >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >> www.mocombeian.com > >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -------- Original message -------- > >> From: Larry Purss > >> Date: 12/01/2013 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00) > >> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" > >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,Andy > >> Blunden > >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >> po russkii > >> > >> > >> Paul, > >> Once any ideology becomes reified it becomes the *nature of reality* > >> and therefore can become an object of scientific investigations. > >> However, taking a wider perspective [bild] the ontological nature of > >> THIS transformation may come into view. Therefore any ideology is a > >> reification of this ontological *realm*when it comes into view as > >> this transformational process [dialectical, dialogical, analogical] > >> > >> Returning to the question of *intersubjectivity*, I wonder how > >> central the question of *friendship* [philia] is to this concept. I > >> am attempting to *bridge* back to the notion of *intimacy* [what the > >> medieval called *tenderness*] whichconcept has become transformed > >> into a confidence in private judgement Ardent suggests, as a > >> consequence of THIS HISTORY [transformation] philia and the common > >> good has withdrawn [dispersed] and civil society becomes transformed > >> from civic *virtues* to realms of power. > >> For the ancient Greeks the essence of philia was not solely a matter > >> of > >> *intimacy* but was fundamentally a realm of DIALOGUE. tHE CONSTANT > >> INTERCHANGE OF TALK CREATED THE COMMON GOOD. > >> > >> This is one aspect of *intersubjectivity* and the dialectic of > >> private and public realms of intersubjectivity Larry > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Larry I agree with althusser because once capitalism becomes > >>> reified through ideologies and ideological apparatuses in the > >>> material world it becomes the nature of reality as such...hence the > >>> realm for scientific investigations. However, I do not believe that > >>> that Gramscian/althusserian reification negates the ontological > >>> nature of being as such highlighted by heidegger in "being and time" > >>> the job of the social philosopher is to outline where ideology attempts > to be ontology and correct it. > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>> President > >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>> www.mocombeian.com > >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------- Original message -------- > >>> From: Larry Purss > >>> Date: 12/01/2013 10:04 AM (GMT-05:00) > >>> To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" ,"eXtended Mind, > >>> Culture, Activity" > >>> Cc: Andy Blunden > >>> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >>> po russkii > >>> > >>> > >>> Paul, > >>> Your comment that Hegel, and Marx begin their analysis at the level > >>> of *scientific rationality* AS species-being is an interesting opening. > >>> I went to Wikipedia to search out *structural Marxism* and this is > >>> the first paragraph. > >>> > >>> :Structural Marxism arose in opposition to the humanistic > Marxismthat dominated many > western universities during the 1970s. > >>> [*citation needed > >>> *] In > >>> contrast to Humanistic Marxism, Althusser stressed that Marxism was > >>> a sciencethat examined > >>> objective structures, [1] > >>> and he > >>> believed that > >>> humanistic, > >>> historistic and > >>> phenomenological Marxism > >>> , which was based on Marx's > early works, was caught in a "pre-scientific humanistic ideology". > >>> [2] > >>> > >>> So scientific rationality is merely one *level* which implies other > >>> levels of rationality in EXCESS [Merleau Ponty] of the scientific > >>> level of rationality. In other words *extensions* of rationality > >>> that are not merely *scientific* but may be extended BEYOND the > >>> scientific > >>> *perspectives* to include humanistic, historical, and > >>> phenomenological/existential forms of rationality. > >>> I am in over my head and using this medium to extend my > >>> understanding of > >>> *rationality* and exploring what is dismissed as merely > >>> *pre-scientific* humanistic ideology. > >>> Your question is opening a *clearing* to imagine a *synthesis of > >>> heideggerian phenomenology AND structural Marxism. > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I think hegel and marx begins their anaylsis where, as heidegger > >>>> points out, husserl does...at the level of scientific rationality. > >>>> This they impute to species-being. Heidegger's "being and time", I > >>>> believe is the proper place to start if we want to understand > >>>> intersubjectivity and empathy. The attempt should be to synthesize > >>>> heideggerian phenomenology with structural Marxism. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>>> President > >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>>> www.mocombeian.com > >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>>> > >>>> -------- Original message -------- > >>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >>>> Date: 11/30/2013 8:19 PM (GMT-05:00) > >>>> To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > >>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, po > >>>> russkii > >>>> > >>>> Charles, and I. Addition to getting smith via Hegel, pretty certain > >>>> that mead would have had fairly direct contact with smith's looking > >>>> glass theory of the self (from Theory of MorAl Sentiments) from > >>>> Charles Horton Cooley (who is often cited as the origi ator of the > >>>> looking glass theory of the self). Is the looking glass theory of > >>>> the self an example of perspective taking? > >>>> Still no closer to an answer to mikes original question! > >>>> Greg > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Yes, Charles, it is well known that Hegel read and admired the > >>>> > work > >>>> of the political economists and he also gave prominant place to the > >>>> Scots in his History of Philosophy, namely, Reid, Beattie, Oswald > >>>> and Douglas Stewart. > >>>> > And Mead wrote in a letter that his I/Me dialectic was based on > Hegel. > >>>> > > >>>> > Andy > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> ----- > >>>> > *Andy Blunden* > >>>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Charles Bazerman wrote: > >>>> >> Do any of you scholarly folk also know if there is a line of > >>>> influence from the Scottish moralists to Hegel's views on > >>>> perspective taking? Given the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment > on U.S. > >>>> education, I wouldn't be surprised if that work got to Mead as > >>>> well. Chuck > >>>> >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> From: Greg Thompson > >>>> >> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:27 pm > >>>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: intersubjectivity and perspective taking, > >>>> >> po > >>>> russkii > >>>> >> To: Mike Cole , "eXtended Mind, Culture, > >>>> Activity" > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> Mike, > >>>> >>> Not so dumb, I would think, since this is a very central part > >>>> >>> of > >>>> Hegel's > >>>> >>> social ontology of the subject. (Too) Simply put, > >>>> self-consciousness arises > >>>> >>> from our awareness that others are subjects just like ourselves. > >>>> Here is > >>>> >>> what I take to be Hegel's description of perspective-taking: > >>>> >>> "It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of > >>>> >>> that > >>>> first > >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. > >>>> >>> First, it > >>>> must > >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order > >>>> >>> thereby > >>>> to > >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > >>>> proceeds to > >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself." > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> This is, of course, the second paragraph in the introduction to > >>>> Hegel's > >>>> >>> Master/Slave dialectic (all 5 paragraphs of the intro are below). > >>>> In that > >>>> >>> tale, perspective-taking fails b.c. although the slave takes > >>>> >>> the perspective of the master, the master has no reason to take > >>>> >>> the > >>>> perspective > >>>> >>> of the slave. This is imperfect recognition and does not allow > >>>> >>> for > >>>> the full > >>>> >>> constitution (consummation, following Bakhtin) of the subjects > >>>> >>> as > >>>> fully > >>>> >>> self-conscious. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> [There is good evidence that this was part of G. H. Mead's > >>>> inspiration in > >>>> >>> his development of perspective taking (but this is both > >>>> >>> debatable > >>>> and, to > >>>> >>> my mind, of little consequence).] > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> I also wonder if some variant of perspective taking can be > >>>> >>> found in > >>>> Marx's > >>>> >>> early concept of species being, or perhaps in the idea of the > >>>> relations of > >>>> >>> persons one to another. It would seem that Marx's writings on > >>>> >>> the > >>>> commodity > >>>> >>> fetish are precisely a problem of perspective taking - the > >>>> individual > >>>> >>> participants no longer see that there are others who are full > >>>> >>> and > >>>> rich > >>>> >>> individuals like themselves; instead, other people become tools > >>>> >>> for accomplishing MY aims. And it is this that communism is > >>>> >>> supposed to reconcile - bringing all people into a deep > >>>> >>> appreciation of not > >>>> just our > >>>> >>> deep dependence upon one another, but also of our universal > >>>> kinship, i.e. > >>>> >>> our "mutuality of being" as Rupert Stasch has so eloquently put > it. > >>>> >>> Mutuality of being requires an understanding that other people > >>>> >>> are > >>>> "just > >>>> >>> like us". > >>>> >>> Isn't that perspective taking? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> But I have no clue how or in what linguistic forms this would > >>>> >>> have > >>>> made its > >>>> >>> way from Hegel's and Marx's German to Vygotsky's Russian (if at > >>>> all...). > >>>> >>> -greg > >>>> >>> p.s. psychological anthropologist Doug Hollan has been > >>>> >>> seriously > >>>> looking > >>>> >>> into "empathy" along with fellow psyc anth scholar C. Jason > Throop. > >>>> One of > >>>> >>> Doug's pieces is listed in the email that just I'll forward in > >>>> >>> just > >>>> a > >>>> >>> minute to XMCA. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Full text of paras 179-184 from Phenomenology of Spirit: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 179 < > >>>> >>> . Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; > >>>> >>> it > >>>> has come > >>>> >>> outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has > >>>> >>> lost > >>>> its own > >>>> >>> self, since it finds itself as an *other* being; secondly, it > >>>> >>> has > >>>> thereby > >>>> >>> sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as > >>>> essentially real, > >>>> >>> but sees its own self in the other. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 180 < > >>>> >>> . It must cancel this its other. To do so is the sublation of > >>>> >>> that > >>>> first > >>>> >>> double meaning, and is therefore a second double meaning. > >>>> >>> First, it > >>>> must > >>>> >>> set itself to sublate the other independent being, in order > >>>> >>> thereby > >>>> to > >>>> >>> become certain of itself as true being, secondly, it thereupon > >>>> proceeds to > >>>> >>> sublate its own self, for this other is itself. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 181 < > >>>> >>> . This sublation in a double sense of its otherness in a double > >>>> sense is at > >>>> >>> the same time a return in a double sense into its self. For, > >>>> firstly, > >>>> >>> through sublation, it gets back itself, because it becomes one > >>>> >>> with > >>>> itself > >>>> >>> again through the cancelling of *its *otherness; but secondly, > >>>> >>> it > >>>> likewise > >>>> >>> gives otherness back again to the other self-consciousness, for > >>>> >>> it > >>>> was > >>>> >>> aware of being in the other, it cancels this its own being in > >>>> >>> the > >>>> other and > >>>> >>> thus lets the other again go free. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 182 < > >>>> >>> . This process of self-consciousness in relation to another > >>>> >>> self-consciousness has in this manner been represented as the > >>>> action of one > >>>> >>> alone. But this action on the part of the one has itself the > >>>> >>> double significance of being at once its own action and the > >>>> >>> action of that > >>>> other > >>>> >>> as well. For the other is likewise independent, shut up within > >>>> itself, and > >>>> >>> there is nothing in it which is not there through itself. The > >>>> >>> first > >>>> does > >>>> >>> not have the object before it only in the passive form > >>>> characteristic > >>>> >>> primarily of the object of desire, but as an object existing > >>>> independently > >>>> >>> for itself, over which therefore it has no power to do anything > >>>> >>> for > >>>> its own > >>>> >>> behalf, if that object does not *per se *do what the first does > >>>> >>> to > >>>> it. The > >>>> >>> process then is absolutely the double process of both > >>>> self-consciousnesses. > >>>> >>> Each sees the other do the same as itself; each itself does > >>>> >>> what it > >>>> demands > >>>> >>> on the part of the other, and for that reason does what it > >>>> >>> does, > >>>> only so > >>>> >>> far as the other does the same. Action from one side only would > >>>> >>> be > >>>> useless, > >>>> >>> because what is to happen can only be brought about by means of > >>>> both. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 183 < > >>>> >>> . The action has then a *double entente* not only in the sense > >>>> >>> that > >>>> it is > >>>> >>> an act done to itself as well as to the other, but also in the > >>>> sense that > >>>> >>> the act *simpliciter* is the act of the one as well as of the > >>>> >>> other regardless of their distinction. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ? < > >>>> >>> 184 < > >>>> >>> . In this movement we see the process repeated which came > >>>> >>> before us > >>>> as the > >>>> >>> play of forces; in the present case, however, it is found in > >>>> consciousness. > >>>> >>> What in the former had effect only for us [contemplating > >>>> experience], holds > >>>> >>> here for the terms themselves. The middle term is > >>>> self-consciousness which > >>>> >>> breaks itself up into the extremes; and each extreme is this > >>>> interchange of > >>>> >>> its own determinateness, and complete transition into the > opposite. > >>>> While > >>>> >>> *qua* consciousness, it no doubt comes outside itself, still, > >>>> >>> in > >>>> being > >>>> >>> outside itself, it is at the same time restrained within > >>>> >>> itself, it > >>>> exists > >>>> >>> for itself, and its self-externalization is for consciousness. > >>>> >>> *Consciousness *finds that it immediately is and is not another > >>>> >>> consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when > >>>> >>> it > >>>> cancels > >>>> >>> itself as existing for itself , and has self-existence only in > >>>> >>> the self-existence of the other. Each is the mediating term to > >>>> >>> the > >>>> other, > >>>> >>> through which each mediates and unites itself with itself; and > >>>> >>> each > >>>> is to > >>>> >>> itself and to the other an immediate self-existing reality, > >>>> >>> which, > >>>> at the > >>>> >>> same time, exists thus for itself only through this mediation. > >>>> >>> They recognize themselves as mutually recognizing one another. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole > >>>> >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> Hi Larry-- You are almost certainly way ahead of me on these > >>>> issues. > >>>> >>> My > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> interest at present is on the development of social and > >>>> >>>> relational perspective taking. From, say, a Vygotskian, or > >>>> >>>> Bakhtinian point > >>>> of > >>>> >>> view > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> (perspective!) what are the socio-cultural contributions to > >>>> interpersonal > >>>> >>>> understanding that we associated with psychological > >>>> >>>> perspective > >>>> taking, > >>>> >>>> perhaps just the ability to "stand in someone else's shoes"? > >>>> Empathy > >>>> >>> has to > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> be one potential contributor, and...... (in the Russian > >>>> traditionS > >>>> >>> we often > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> discuss)? > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Perhaps just a really dumb question. Wouldn't be the first time!! > >>>> >>>> mike > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:37 AM, Larry Purss > >>>> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> >>> wrote: > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> Mike, > >>>> >>>>> I am wondering if you could expand on your question that > >>>> is > >>>> >>> referring to > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> perspective taking and its possible meanings. I believe > >>>> this > >>>> >>> question of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> perspective taking is also converging with your other > >>>> >>>>> question > >>>> on > >>>> >>> *kinds* > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> or *types* of persons. [personhood like childhood] > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I am asking for more clarity on your *bad question* which > >>>> >>>>> seems > >>>> to > >>>> >>> be > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> central to the multiple discourses on *sociocultural* theory > >>>> >>>>> and > >>>> practice > >>>> >>>>> This *space* or *zone* of questioning which opens up a > >>>> clearing > >>>> >>> for the > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> multiple notions of the concept *intersubjectivity* and its > >>>> convergence > >>>> >>>>> with the concept of *perspective-taking* and how this topic > >>>> >>>>> is > >>>> explored > >>>> >>>> in > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> Russian translation is a topic I want to explore further. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I wanted to offer a quote which I found interesting > >>>> exploring > >>>> >>> notions of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> *identity* AS KINDS [categories] > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Oakeshott argues that "This distinction, then, between > 'goings-on' > >>>> >>>>> identified as themselves > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> exhibitions of intelligence and 'goings-on' which may be made > >>>> >>>> intelligible > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> but are not themselves > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> intelligent, is not a distinction between mental and physical > >>>> >>>>> or > >>>> between > >>>> >>>>> minds and bodies regarded > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> as entities. It is a distinction within the engagement of > >>>> understanding, > >>>> >>>> a > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> distinction between > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> 'sciences' (that is, ideal characters) and the identities > >>>> with > >>>> >>> which they > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> are concerned. And in > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> calling it a categorial distinction what is being asserted is > >>>> that > >>>> >>> the > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> understanding of identities > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> recognized as themselves exhibitions of intelligence cannot > >>>> >>>>> be > >>>> 'reduced' > >>>> >>>>> to the understanding of > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> identities no so recognized", *On Human Conduct*, pp. 14-15. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I was intrigued by Oakeshott's understanding of *sciences* > >>>> >>> [multiple] AS > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> RESPRESENTING IDEAL KINDS [categorical distinctions]. This > >>>> realm > >>>> >>> of KINDS > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> AS perspective taking moves the question of intersubjectivity > >>>> >>>>> to > >>>> converge > >>>> >>>>> with *culture* and *history*. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> I will pause, but this topic is endlessly fascinating. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Larry Purss > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:21 AM, mike cole > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> Dear Russian experts on XMCA > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> I have been reading about the development of > >>>> >>>>>> intersubjectivity > >>>> and > >>>> >>>>>> perspective taking, including an article by scholars who say > >>>> they > >>>> >>> are > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> working in the "sociocultural perspective." It got me > >>>> to > >>>> >>> wondering how > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> Russian scholars discuss these topics. No Russians are cited > >>>> >>>>>> in > >>>> the > >>>> >>>> work I > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>>> am reading, but Mead and > >>>> >>>>>> Piaget. > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> When looking at suggested translations into Russian from > >>>> English > >>>> >>> for > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> these > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>>> terms, the cognate > >>>> >>>>>> perspectiv seems to appear almost everywhere. The phrase > >>>> for > >>>> >>> "point of > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> view" is literally that, > >>>> >>>>>> tochka-point zreniya-seeing, genetive case. > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> I figure I am blind to something obvious here, but darned if > >>>> I > >>>> >>> know what > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> it > >>>> >>>>>> is. Any help out there?? > >>>> >>>>>> mike > >>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >>>>>> P > >>>> >>>>>> S-- Eugene wrote an interesting article in MCA a while back > >>>> >>>>>> on intersubjectivity and there are Vygotsky refs but they do > >>>> >>>>>> not seem to go to the question I am > >>>> asking. > >>>> >>> Perhaps its > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>>> just my bad question! > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> -- > >>>> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> >>> Visiting Assistant Professor > >>>> >>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> >>> Brigham Young University > >>>> >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DECEMBER 1 2013 UNDERGROUND SOCIABILITIES Identy Culture Resistance.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 5894835 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131203/bed75588/attachment-0001.pdf From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 01:45:52 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:45:52 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children Message-ID: Dear all, Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions between children and parents, and children themselves. Ulvi From smago@uga.edu Wed Dec 4 03:16:04 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:16:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that focuses on jazz rather than classical music. http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and her husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest jazz bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music in education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, although I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the people in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple of checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM studies aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. Available at http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school music programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Available at http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive social updraft in their lives through music. Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate to a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children Dear all, Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions between children and parents, and children themselves. Ulvi From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 03:19:43 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:19:43 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you very much Peter! 2013/12/4 Peter Smagorinsky > Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed > here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that > focuses on jazz rather than classical music. > http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and her > husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest jazz > bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my > brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I > might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). > > They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music in > education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, although > I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the people > in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple of > checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: > > Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM studies > aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. Available > at > http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ > > Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school music > programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta > Journal-Constitution. Available at > http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog > > These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a > great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive > social updraft in their lives through music. > > Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate to > a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children > > Dear all, > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is > written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music > instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with > children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a > learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions > between children and parents, and children themselves. > > Ulvi > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 05:42:13 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 15:42:13 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: <077BAB7A-5BDE-475B-A922-BA2545D7DCF7@stjohns.edu> References: <077BAB7A-5BDE-475B-A922-BA2545D7DCF7@stjohns.edu> Message-ID: Thank you very much Michael! 2013/12/4 Michael Downton > Hi Ulvi (and others), > > To add on to Peter's remarks, I can't think of anything that addresses the > specific question. The Jazz House Kids group is wonderful, along with > Little Kids Rock (www.*littlekidsrock*.org). > > There is a book by Patricia Sheehan Campbell called "Songs in Their Heads" > that I believe addresses the impact of music on families. I don't have the > book in my office right now, but I remember there being something in there. > > As a side note, I'm working with an after-school program called > In-Addition. They are incorporating more arts/music based projects this > year. One thing they do is go on 2 camping trips (one at the beginning of > the semester and one at the end). This past trip, we gave parents a poem > and had them construct a "song" using only materials they found in the > woods. They had 45 minutes to come up with something and then perform it > for everyone (including their children). The end result was astounding! > These are people that had no formal training in music (for the exception > of 2 parents). We have yet to go over some of the interviews with did with > the parents and kids, but the kids noted that they were surprised their > parents would do something like that. It showed them that it was ok to > take a risk. The parents remarked how they learned to work together, that > everyones suggestions were valued, and how they were able to 'come out of > their shell'. > > While it is not specifically Western Classical music, the theme is > something we are very interested in investigating more. > > -Michael Downton > Assistant Professor > Curriculum and Instruction > St. John's University > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Thank you very much Peter! > > 2013/12/4 Peter Smagorinsky > > Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed > here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that > focuses on jazz rather than classical music. > http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and her > husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest jazz > bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my > brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I > might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). > > They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music in > education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, although > I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the people > in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple of > checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: > > Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM studies > aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. Available > at > > http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ > > Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school music > programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta > Journal-Constitution. Available at > > http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog > > These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a > great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive > social updraft in their lives through music. > > Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate to > a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children > > Dear all, > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is > written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music > instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with > children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a > learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions > between children and parents, and children themselves. > > Ulvi > > > > From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 06:49:57 2013 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:49:57 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: <077BAB7A-5BDE-475B-A922-BA2545D7DCF7@stjohns.edu> Message-ID: This profile of Roberta Guaspari, with some of the links from it, relates to the experience of teaching Western classical music to impoverished children, though it is not a thesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Guaspari Best, Dan On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you very much Michael! > > 2013/12/4 Michael Downton > > > Hi Ulvi (and others), > > > > To add on to Peter's remarks, I can't think of anything that addresses > the > > specific question. The Jazz House Kids group is wonderful, along with > > Little Kids Rock (www.*littlekidsrock*.org). > > > > There is a book by Patricia Sheehan Campbell called "Songs in Their > Heads" > > that I believe addresses the impact of music on families. I don't have > the > > book in my office right now, but I remember there being something in > there. > > > > As a side note, I'm working with an after-school program called > > In-Addition. They are incorporating more arts/music based projects this > > year. One thing they do is go on 2 camping trips (one at the beginning > of > > the semester and one at the end). This past trip, we gave parents a poem > > and had them construct a "song" using only materials they found in the > > woods. They had 45 minutes to come up with something and then perform it > > for everyone (including their children). The end result was astounding! > > These are people that had no formal training in music (for the exception > > of 2 parents). We have yet to go over some of the interviews with did > with > > the parents and kids, but the kids noted that they were surprised their > > parents would do something like that. It showed them that it was ok to > > take a risk. The parents remarked how they learned to work together, > that > > everyones suggestions were valued, and how they were able to 'come out of > > their shell'. > > > > While it is not specifically Western Classical music, the theme is > > something we are very interested in investigating more. > > > > -Michael Downton > > Assistant Professor > > Curriculum and Instruction > > St. John's University > > > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > Thank you very much Peter! > > > > 2013/12/4 Peter Smagorinsky > > > > Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed > > here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that > > focuses on jazz rather than classical music. > > http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and > her > > husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest > jazz > > bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my > > brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, > I > > might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco > Pastorius). > > > > They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music > in > > education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, > although > > I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the > people > > in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple > of > > checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: > > > > Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM > studies > > aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. > Available > > at > > > > > http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ > > > > Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school > music > > programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta > > Journal-Constitution. Available at > > > > > http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog > > > > These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a > > great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a > positive > > social updraft in their lives through music. > > > > Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate > to > > a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children > > > > Dear all, > > > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis > is > > written for an experience in which low income children learn playing > music > > instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with > > children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a > > learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions > > between children and parents, and children themselves. > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 06:52:45 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 16:52:45 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: <077BAB7A-5BDE-475B-A922-BA2545D7DCF7@stjohns.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Dan! 2013/12/4 Daniel Hyman > This profile of Roberta Guaspari, with some of the links from it, relates > to the experience of teaching Western classical music to impoverished > children, though it is not a thesis: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Guaspari > > Best, > Dan > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Thank you very much Michael! > > > > 2013/12/4 Michael Downton > > > > > Hi Ulvi (and others), > > > > > > To add on to Peter's remarks, I can't think of anything that addresses > > the > > > specific question. The Jazz House Kids group is wonderful, along with > > > Little Kids Rock (www.*littlekidsrock*.org). > > > > > > There is a book by Patricia Sheehan Campbell called "Songs in Their > > Heads" > > > that I believe addresses the impact of music on families. I don't have > > the > > > book in my office right now, but I remember there being something in > > there. > > > > > > As a side note, I'm working with an after-school program called > > > In-Addition. They are incorporating more arts/music based projects > this > > > year. One thing they do is go on 2 camping trips (one at the beginning > > of > > > the semester and one at the end). This past trip, we gave parents a > poem > > > and had them construct a "song" using only materials they found in the > > > woods. They had 45 minutes to come up with something and then perform > it > > > for everyone (including their children). The end result was > astounding! > > > These are people that had no formal training in music (for the > exception > > > of 2 parents). We have yet to go over some of the interviews with did > > with > > > the parents and kids, but the kids noted that they were surprised their > > > parents would do something like that. It showed them that it was ok to > > > take a risk. The parents remarked how they learned to work together, > > that > > > everyones suggestions were valued, and how they were able to 'come out > of > > > their shell'. > > > > > > While it is not specifically Western Classical music, the theme is > > > something we are very interested in investigating more. > > > > > > -Michael Downton > > > Assistant Professor > > > Curriculum and Instruction > > > St. John's University > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > > > > Thank you very much Peter! > > > > > > 2013/12/4 Peter Smagorinsky > > > > > > Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see > posed > > > here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization > that > > > focuses on jazz rather than classical music. > > > http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and > > her > > > husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest > > jazz > > > bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my > > > brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass > player, > > I > > > might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco > > Pastorius). > > > > > > They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music > > in > > > education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, > > although > > > I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the > > people > > > in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple > > of > > > checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: > > > > > > Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM > > studies > > > aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. > > Available > > > at > > > > > > > > > http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ > > > > > > Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school > > music > > > programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta > > > Journal-Constitution. Available at > > > > > > > > > http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog > > > > > > These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs > do a > > > great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a > > positive > > > social updraft in their lives through music. > > > > > > Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate > > to > > > a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis > > is > > > written for an experience in which low income children learn playing > > music > > > instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with > > > children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a > > > learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions > > > between children and parents, and children themselves. > > > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Wed Dec 4 14:29:12 2013 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 09:29:12 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ulvi, Diana Hollinger has written a thesis about the El Sistema orchestra in Venezuela. I don't know if it includes information about parents and families but it certainly describes the benefits of orchestral education for low-income children. I'll send you a copy off list. El Sistema is certainly worth googling for anyone interested in this topic. Cheers, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Building 902, Room 159 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 On 4 December 2013 20:45, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Dear all, > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is > written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music > instruments for Western classical music and this process, together > with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a > learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions > between children and parents, and children themselves. > > Ulvi > From bruce@brucerob.eu Wed Dec 4 15:38:07 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 23:38:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <529FBCDF.3030804@brucerob.eu> Wow! They certainly manage to line up some great names for their master classes. Jazzmobile founded by Billy Taylor does similar work in New York and the late Horace Tapscott did in LA, I think. Bruce R On 04/12/2013 11:16, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that focuses on jazz rather than classical music. > http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and her husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest jazz bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). > > They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music in education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, although I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what the people in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a couple of checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: > > Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM studies aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. Available at http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my-view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ > > Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school music programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Available at http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music-programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the-math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog > > These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive social updraft in their lives through music. > > Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate to a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children > > Dear all, > > Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis is written for an experience in which low income children learn playing music instruments for Western classical music and this process, together with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions between children and parents, and children themselves. > > Ulvi > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Dec 4 18:22:37 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 04:22:37 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: <529FBCDF.3030804@brucerob.eu> References: <529FBCDF.3030804@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: It seems that my research's subquestions is the contact of the working - class with Western classical music. It also seems to me that this can be a research of critical ethnography. Any idea on this, or a better proposal for research method? For instance, I found this: http://theworkersdreadnought.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/classical-music-and-the-working-class/ "It cannot be denied that the working classes have slowly ceased to be the large sections of classical music audiences. This has to do in part with changes in tastes, which itself is the result of a changing social formations (including as I mentioned earlier the active dismantling of rigorous arts education in public schools due to smaller school budgets which thus robs children a system of reference by which to enjoy classical music unless their parents provide it for them, many of whom have similarly been stripped of such an education) and the time and attention one has to listen to a given piece (this of course has to do with the relationship between the pressures of the working day and the need to fill ?downtime? with mindless ?entertainment?), but also due to the elitism that has pervaded classical music in the 20th century". * It is this elitism that non-formal music instruction for working-class children is breaking and here it lies its importance because I think that bourgeois society can be best defined as the society for bourgeois in which working-class lives and is allowed to live somehow. Allowed, because in countries like Turkey, the working -class is implicitly told to stay behind a certain line and not to go beyond this line. It is for this reason that they do not frequent elitist classical music concert halls and when they fill such concert halls, usual spectators are surprised with their existence. In fact, I believe that "elitism that has pervaded classical music in the 20th century" was to a large extent peculiar to capitalist societies. There was no such elitism in Soviet Union for instance. On the contrary, working - class masses were enjoying Richter, Gilels, and Oistrakh in Moscow Conservatory ... Cd booklets repeating again and again "the pressure" on Shostakovich do not mention this huge mass and working-class character of the enjoyment of classical music in Soviet Union...and in other socialist countries... The pianist of this society also was quite different. Richter, not being a party member and a communist, I have read that one day he took his car and went to Siberia where he gave concerts during six months in small towns and big cities! Lastly, I remember also having read that people from Moscow were also going from time to time to Siberia to ask for "talented" students having good ears etc, surely not an elitist education, but looking for talents within a huge population which receives a good minimum music education, but an elevated minimum. Compared with this experience, even though they are very noble efforts, today's experiences remain and are deemd to remain very limited, except perhaps El Sistema in Venezuela. 2013/12/5 Bruce Robinson > Wow! They certainly manage to line up some great names for their master > classes. Jazzmobile founded by Billy Taylor does similar work in New York > and the late Horace Tapscott did in LA, I think. > > Bruce R > > > On 04/12/2013 11:16, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed >> here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that >> focuses on jazz rather than classical music. >> http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and >> her husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest >> jazz bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my >> brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I >> might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). >> >> They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music >> in education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, >> although I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what >> the people in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a >> couple of checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: >> >> Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM >> studies aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. >> Available at http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my- >> view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ >> >> Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school >> music programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta >> Journal-Constitution. Available at http://blogs.ajc.com/get- >> schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music- >> programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the- >> math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog >> >> These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a >> great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive >> social updraft in their lives through music. >> >> Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate >> to a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il >> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children >> >> Dear all, >> >> Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis >> is written for an experience in which low income children learn playing >> music instruments for Western classical music and this process, together >> with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a >> learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions >> between children and parents, and children themselves. >> >> Ulvi >> >> > From bruce@brucerob.eu Thu Dec 5 02:52:40 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:52:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-formal music education for working-class children In-Reply-To: References: <529FBCDF.3030804@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: <52A05AF8.6090008@brucerob.eu> It is not true as Workers' Dreadnought claims that working class has been totally excluded from classical music by elitism. This ignores the British brass band tradition which was (is?) rooted in working class communities and usually originated in particular workplaces. Famous bands include the Black Dyke Mills band, the Grimethorpe Colliery band and Foden's (a vehicle manufacturer). They were sometimes directly sponsored by employers but also were often financed by the players themselves and had links to the labour movement. As well as appearing on the streets for ceremonies ranging from the religious to the political (e.g. the Durham Miners' Gala), they also perform in concert halls and have had music written for them by well known classical composers. Some have survived the disappearence of the workplaces they came from, though others have not. The film 'Brassed Off' is well worth watching both for an idea of the tradition and its links to working class communities and its decline. Also in cities like Manchester there has been (I'm not sure it's still true) a working class audience for the Halle Orchestra. Plus the Welsh choir tradition. It is true that these have been in decline and is I think directly linked to the decline of distinct work-related communities in the UK, the easy provision of alternative entertainment and, as Dreadnought says, cuts to the provision of music education in schools both because of its marginalisation in the National Curriculum and more recently the removal of music education from schools to 'hubs' which are failing. I don't think it has much to do with the pressure of the working day which was worse in past times or the need for concentration. Bruce R On 05/12/2013 02:22, Ulvi ??il wrote: > It seems that my research's subquestions is the contact of the working - > class with Western classical music. It also seems to me that this can be a > research of critical ethnography. Any idea on this, or a better proposal > for research method? > > For instance, I found this: > > http://theworkersdreadnought.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/classical-music-and-the-working-class/ > > "It cannot be denied that the working classes have slowly ceased to be the > large sections of classical music audiences. This has to do in part with > changes in tastes, which itself is the result of a changing social > formations (including as I mentioned earlier the active dismantling of > rigorous arts education in public schools due to smaller school budgets > which thus robs children a system of reference by which to enjoy classical > music unless their parents provide it for them, many of whom have similarly > been stripped of such an education) and the time and attention one has to > listen to a given piece (this of course has to do with the relationship > between the pressures of the working day and the need to fill ?downtime? > with mindless ?entertainment?), but also due to the elitism that has > pervaded classical music in the 20th century". > > * > > It is this elitism that non-formal music instruction for working-class > children is breaking and here it lies its importance because I think that > bourgeois society can be best defined as the society for bourgeois in which > working-class lives and is allowed to live somehow. Allowed, because in > countries like Turkey, the working -class is implicitly told to stay behind > a certain line and not to go beyond this line. It is for this reason that > they do not frequent elitist classical music concert halls and when they > fill such concert halls, usual spectators are surprised with their > existence. > > In fact, I believe that "elitism that has pervaded classical music in the > 20th century" was to a large extent peculiar to capitalist societies. > There was no such elitism in Soviet Union for instance. On the contrary, > working - class masses were enjoying Richter, Gilels, and Oistrakh in > Moscow Conservatory ... Cd booklets repeating again and again "the > pressure" on Shostakovich do not mention this huge mass and working-class > character of the enjoyment of classical music in Soviet Union...and in > other socialist countries... > > The pianist of this society also was quite different. Richter, not being a > party member and a communist, I have read that one day he took his car and > went to Siberia where he gave concerts during six months in small towns > and big cities! > > Lastly, I remember also having read that people from Moscow were also going > from time to time to Siberia to ask for "talented" students having good > ears etc, surely not an elitist education, but looking for talents within a > huge population which receives a good minimum music education, but an > elevated minimum. > > Compared with this experience, even though they are very noble efforts, > today's experiences remain and are deemd to remain very limited, except > perhaps El Sistema in Venezuela. > > > 2013/12/5 Bruce Robinson > >> Wow! They certainly manage to line up some great names for their master >> classes. Jazzmobile founded by Billy Taylor does similar work in New York >> and the late Horace Tapscott did in LA, I think. >> >> Bruce R >> >> >> On 04/12/2013 11:16, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >>> Ulvi, I can't directly answer your inquiry, which I'm happy to see posed >>> here. But I can direct you to an incredibly successful organization that >>> focuses on jazz rather than classical music. >>> http://jazzhousekids.org/home.php is run by singer Melissa Walker and >>> her husband, bass player Christian McBride (probably the world's greatest >>> jazz bassist at this point) in the Newark, NJ area. I know of it because my >>> brother is chair of their board (and McBride's 3rd favorite bass player, I >>> might add, after Ray Brown, whose bass McBride plays, and Jaco Pastorius). >>> >>> They do collect whatever they can find that justifies the role of music >>> in education and beyond, and include lists of benefits and outcomes, >>> although I don't know how many of them have empirical support beyond what >>> the people in the program find through their work with kids. I've written a >>> couple of checks, and a couple of pieces supporting what they do: >>> >>> Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 21). My View: Hear the music - STEM >>> studies aren't the only path to a better future. CNN Schools of Thought. >>> Available at http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22/hfr-my- >>> view-hear-the-music-stem-studies-arent-the-only-path-to-a-better-future/ >>> >>> Walker, M., & Smagorinsky, P. (2013, January 1). The power of school >>> music programs: Students come for the music and stay for the math. Atlanta >>> Journal-Constitution. Available at http://blogs.ajc.com/get- >>> schooled-blog/2013/01/01/the-power-of-school-music- >>> programs-students-come-for-the-music-and-stay-for-the- >>> math/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog >>> >>> These brief essays are not research, but describe how their programs do a >>> great job with a whole lot of kids in providing what I've called a positive >>> social updraft in their lives through music. >>> >>> Anyhow, hope this helps, and that if anyone's got a few bucks to donate >>> to a good cause, they keep this great outfit in mind. p >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:46 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-formal music education for working-class children >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Does any body know for any experience in which a master or Ph.D. thesis >>> is written for an experience in which low income children learn playing >>> music instruments for Western classical music and this process, together >>> with children's changes also the lives of the parents, functioning as a >>> learning process for parents also, in overall changing the interactions >>> between children and parents, and children themselves. >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >>> From lstone@skymail.csus.edu Thu Dec 5 09:57:31 2013 From: lstone@skymail.csus.edu (Stone, Lynda) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 17:57:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] faculty position In-Reply-To: <52A05AF8.6090008@brucerob.eu> References: <529FBCDF.3030804@brucerob.eu> <52A05AF8.6090008@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: <2352A142-65F9-4552-A331-65D4481F8C93@csus.edu> Hi XMCAers! Hope you can share this or find it of interest-- lynda CHILD DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM COLLEGE OF EDUCATION CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, SACRAMENTO Tenure-track POSITION Child Development: California State University, Sacramento invites applications for a tenure track position in Child Development at the Assistant Professor rank beginning August 2014. An earned Ph.D. in Child Development, Human Development, Developmental Psychology, Early Childhood Education, or a closely related field is required. All degree requirements must be completed by August 20, 2014. Candidates should also possess: a) a strong background in developmental theory and research methods; b) a demonstrated focus in a specific developmental area (e.g., language, social/emotional, or cognitive); and c) professional and/or research experience with children/adolescents and families from diverse backgrounds. Preferred qualifications include strong leadership and interpersonal skills, and demonstrated experience in teaching undergraduate or graduate level classes. Duties include teaching undergraduate and graduate courses in day and/or evening classes; sponsoring graduate theses/projects; maintaining a productive program of research and scholarly activities; student advising; university and community service. Salary is dependent upon qualifications and professional experience. Submit a letter of interest, current curriculum vita, official transcripts, recent data on teaching effectiveness (if available) and three recent letters of reference (please provide names and phone numbers). Screening of applications to begin on January 31, 2014. Position open until filled. Sacramento State is an employer with a strong institutional commitment to the principle of diversity in all areas. Address materials to: Dr. Ana Garcia-Nevarez, Chair, Undergraduate Studies in Education,California State University Sacramento, 6000 J Street, Sacramento, CA 95819-6079, (916) 278-7192, Fax (916)-278-5993, e-mail: garciaa@csus.edu. From smago@uga.edu Sat Dec 7 02:51:32 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 10:51:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] the latest in animal tool use Message-ID: <38b27cb9475e4a90ab3723f9d3c9a188@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/new-research-reveals-crocodiles-use-tools-hunt-bir/ncDFD/ From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sat Dec 7 07:29:49 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:29:49 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Music education & working class Message-ID: http://act.maydaygroup.org/php/archives_v10.php#10_1 Volume 10, Issue 1, August 2011 especially but others also. An excellent article attached from which I quote a wonderful passage: The demand among workers for the education enabling them to transcend their cultural impoverishment was fulfilled by two different institutions within the organized left. One was the labor unions which had then assumed, as has been observed, a much broader function in workers? lives, very different from the narrowly focused, legalistic bureaucracies they have since become. An indication can be seen in a 2006 newsgroup posting11 from upstate New York electrical worker Jerry Monaco: My Italian working class neighborhood in an industrial town was ruled by General Electric, the Catholic Church, the democratic machine, and the union local. But the people in that neighborhood I remember from 1965, had a good eye for "the quality" of certain things -- good food of course, but also good music . . . My great grandfather could tell you why Verdi was good and Puccini was "like adding sugar to honey" and he never even finished the third grade. . . . My great Uncle Tony could tell you why Louis Armstrong was great . . . and why he liked Frank Sinatra and Billy Holiday but why so many other popular singers were "empty". Uncle Tony never graduated from high school, but he did take classes in classical music (at) the union hall. He belonged to a reading group at the union hall and read poetry. Yes there was a poetry group for the factory workers at the union hall in Schenectady, NY. I tend to think that because such people were around I learned to appreciate quality. Union halls fulfilled an important social, cultural and educational function for many thousands of workers, though so far as I know, these have not been the subject of much scholarly attention. Although the unions? role was substantial, probably more central in advancing workers? cultural education in the beginning of the 20th century were the now mostly forgotten workers schools operated under the sponsorship of the Communist Party. These, which included the Thomas Jefferson School for Social Science in New York, the Samuel Adams School in Boston, the Abraham Lincoln School in Chicago, the Los Angeles People's Educational Center and the San Francisco Labor School would spread to virtually every major city with a yearly enrollment of many thousands at their peak.12 While weighted towards the social sciences, economics, history, sociology, taught from a Marxian perspective, also available to students was a substantial humanities and arts curriculum with courses at the flagship Jefferson School in music history and music theory taught by composers such as Wallingford Riegger, Marc Blitzstein and by scholars such as Sidney Finkelstein and Charles Seeger. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: connolly.forum.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 866508 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131207/d082445c/attachment-0001.pdf From derekpatton19@gmail.com Sat Dec 7 17:39:58 2013 From: derekpatton19@gmail.com (Derek Patton) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:39:58 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] culture change in a preschool using positive language Message-ID: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> Dear folks, This talk is really about changing children's concepts of themselves and others by changing the culture of the preschool, in the Zone of proximal development and the teachers' loan of consciousness to them at those teachable moments. I was told NOT to be an academic and make it simple and exciting to get the general public interested. I would be interested in any input for the next time, in the sense that I am trying to get these ideas across in the viewers' Zone, so they actually go away with at least one thing they might do to change the world, their world, a child's world. If the link doesn't come through, just google Derek patton TEDx on YouTube. Published on 5 Dec 2013 Derek Patton explores the role of positive language - specifically, the language of virtues - in engaging with young people with conduct disorders. Derek is a child and family psychologist finishing his PhD on the topic of teacher dialogue that develops children's thinking abilities at the University of Melbourne's Graduate School of Education. He is also a casual lecturer and academic mentor in the Master of School Leadership degree training school principals in whole school positive culture change. He currently works in Victoria schools as a psychologist and previously worked in youth justice, specialist residential schools and with traumatised immigrant children. The common thread in his research and practice has been the use of a positive language of change optimizing capacities and hope. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uptMwDiJn-I From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 00:44:23 2013 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 09:44:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Memory, aging and culture Message-ID: Hi, I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? Best, LK From sdizayi@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 03:32:53 2013 From: sdizayi@gmail.com (Saman Dizayi) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 14:32:53 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi..I am looking for references about Homi Bhabha's unhomed home..thank you On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by > cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > Best, > LK > -- saman From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 06:37:53 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 06:37:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that question would help a lot in answering your questions. mikec On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by > cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > Best, > LK > From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 09:43:53 2013 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:43:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, sorry. I wonder to what extent the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and aging ? Thanks for your help ! Best regards, LK 2013/12/8 mike cole > What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that > question would help a lot in answering your questions. > mikec > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >> Best, >> LK >> > > From smago@uga.edu Sun Dec 8 10:06:46 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:06:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: <7713265d863a487587d585a6850228d8@BL2PR02MB436.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <088aeaac5f6545ee82dfa2161f07ed09@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Sent by one of our doctoral students to a colleague: I am very thankful that you emailed me about the events in Ukraine. They are presented in the US mass media and they are shown with much less detailed information and they often generalize things. For instance, right now more than 1 million people are on the Independent Square and about approx. 4 million all around in Ukraine. The Ukrainians in other countries are protesting in the biggest cities. But in the US press, we don?t see this. My family here, in Ukraine, and Belarus - we are all nervous and we are watching live broadcasting of the events. Today is the biggest official peaceful protest. Yesterday, the European Union diplomats voiced their opinions: EU is supporting this protest. They say it is the biggest peaceful protest ever seen. However, no one knows how everything will go. The president is given 48 hours to dismiss the government and to free political prisoners. Honestly, after mass beating of students, which was ordered by the president, he never faced the people. He went to China, then to Russia, and now he is hiding (watching the protest at home or somewhere else). What we are seeing now in Ukraine is unbelievable. Thanks to today?s technology, we can follow the biggest hearts beating together on EuroMaidan. As you use the quote from Steve Jobs: ?Technology alone is not enough?? I agree. We see how humanity works with technology. No one knows how the things will go. The wise opinion was expressed by Dr. Tymothy Snyder, who is an American historian and Professor of History at Yale. He wrote the best books about Ukraine and the post-Soviet area ? Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010). This book is a ?must? for the students who are taking the classes about ideology and totalitarian regime. Here is a link to his opinion on the current events: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/dec/05/ukraine-protests-way-out/ As to my part in the Ukrainian events, we - my husband and I - are helping by translating the information (I will share two documents that I was working on in order to bring the information to the wider audience). My husband is from Belarus, so for people of Belarus these events represent a step for their own try to go against President Lukashenko. I am adding a picture of Kyiv (was done about two hours ago) and I am adding the letter from the writers. If you want to share it with colleagues, please do. 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Name: ATT00003.htm Url: https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131208/93e4ce1e/attachment-0001.pl From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 12:49:32 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:49:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah. That explanation helps a lot. It seems like your question is going to be very difficult to answer with any certainty- I will be interested to see if anyone out there in xmcaland can suggest references or research. The first issues that come to mind for me that might be part of the picture include the status of old age in the society in question (in simplest terms, revered versus dismissed) and life expectancy. I am reaching an age where not only do I experience "senior moments" (which suggests one look for lexical markers of a special concern) but where many people I know or my friends know, who are suffering from Alzheimers. It is hard to imagine someone in rural Liberia (an example society where the elderly are both revered and pretty scarce owing to disease and associated perils) being awfully concerned about memory problems in old age. All those "co-variates" of age-related memory loss make it difficult to tease out the causes and consequences of cultural sources of loss. mike On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, sorry. I wonder to what extent > the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to > one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer > pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory > performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural > dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > aging ? > Thanks for your help ! > Best regards, > LK > > > 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that >> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >> mikec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >>> Best, >>> LK >>> >> >> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Dec 8 13:48:01 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:48:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help them do so. Martin On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, sorry. I wonder to what extent > the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to > one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer > pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory > performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural > dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > aging ? > Thanks for your help ! > Best regards, > LK > > > 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that >> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >> mikec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >>> Best, >>> LK >>> >> >> From geraldine.mcdonald@clear.net.nz Sun Dec 8 15:21:36 2013 From: geraldine.mcdonald@clear.net.nz (geraldine.mcdonald) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:21:36 +1300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Memory, aging and culture Message-ID: <52a4ff00.3df.11b7.12274@clear.net.nz> When, many years ago, I wrote a thesis on children's understandong of a set of words I became interested in the idea of networks of meaning in which individual words were supported by underlying components of meaning. Manfred Bierwisch was popular at the time. It seems to me that the loss of memory in old age has much to do with the extent to which words are connected in meaning, shares components with, other words. Names on the other hand are intended as unique identifiers and knowing other personal names or even a surname does not automatically support recall. Because components of word meaning are cultural and independent of the psychological process of recall the network idea does seem to fit within a CHAT framework. Geraldine McDonald From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 8 15:53:37 2013 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 23:53:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as public) need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. The following may help in specifics around dementia. http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-locked.html There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several dimensions. Regards, ? Peter Jones Lancashire, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care http://twitter.com/h2cm On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer wrote: I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help them do so. Martin On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, sorry. I wonder to what extent > the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to > one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer > pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory > performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural > dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > aging ? > Thanks for your help ! > Best regards, > LK > > > 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that >> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >> mikec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >>> Best, >>> LK >>> >> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 16:47:10 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 16:47:10 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Facinating. The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of age/health and memory seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As Geraldine suggests word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter reveals himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. And look at the geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires a corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. Am I tracking this right? (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) :-)) mike On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > > Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. > With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as public) > need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared > for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > > The following may help in specifics around dementia. > > http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > > Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > > I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-locked.html > > There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several > dimensions. > > Regards, > > > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* > of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for > remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put > old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in > cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their > relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help > them do so. > > Martin > > > On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, > sorry. I wonder to what extent > > the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > > memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > > getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > > (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to > > one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of > Alzheimer > > pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > > cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our > memory > > performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > > wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which > cultural > > dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > > aging ? > > Thanks for your help ! > > Best regards, > > LK > > > > > > 2013/12/8 mike cole > > > >> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that > >> question would help a lot in answering your questions. > >> mikec > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer < > laure.kloetzer@gmail.com>wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected > by > >>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > >>> Best, > >>> LK > >>> > >> > >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Dec 8 19:35:30 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 19:35:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [Air-L] Elsevier and academia.edu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems like a relevant set of issues for xmcaophiles, especially those for whom publishing is a major source for accruing capital-- cultural, social and other. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jonathan Sterne, Dr. Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6:47 AM Subject: [Air-L] Elsevier and academia.edu To: "" Hi All, I've been following these developments with interest. A few comments. 1. It is not true that there are no open access journals that are good to publish in, even for conservative hiring and tenure committees. Though I guess it depends on your discipline and subfield which they might be. I am on the editorial board of International Journal of Communication and joined precisely because I believe in the project. 2. Publishing requires time, skill and money. But it doesn't have to be done for profit. There is a big difference between university presses, who are mostly money-losing operations, small independent publishers who are guided by an intellectual or political vision, and big conglomerates like elsevier who are in the business of maximizing profits. Why we should be supporting the conglomerates is beyond me, but we should definitely be supporting university presses or a robust library-driven alternative unless you like the idea of laying out your own page proofs in the future and handling all your own copyediting, promotion, reviewing and distribution, on top of all the other duties being offloaded to faculty these days. (this is especially important for book authors) 3. Everything people have been saying about publishers like Elsevier being parasitic on academics' free labour is also applicable to academia.edu< http://academia.edu>. As far as I can tell, academia.edu< http://academia.edu> is itself a for-profit operation, working on the same suspect business model as other social media sites. They provide a "free" site that is actually very expensive to host and maintain. The site is "free" to users because user fees are actually less valuable than the data generated by users of "free" accounts, over which users have no control. I only know of one group of potential customers for such data sets--marketers. So once again we have advertising creeping into new media business models, except it's scholarship, a space where advertising hasn't really taken over. Unless there's something I'm missing, the fact that they were granted a .edu address is an impressive con job, since they appear to be a .com like all the others. If academia.edu has another business model that doesn't involve selling its users' data to third parties over whom we have no control, or marketers as their real clients, I would like to hear about it. 4. I have joined academia.edu to get prepublication copies of essays. I keep my own work on a hosted site that's easy to find in google. That site incurs costs of all sorts, but I know what they are and what the profit-model is for the people providing me the services. For now, I am more comfortable with those options (I could, also, host a site on my own university's servers, but there are reasons not to do that). Best, --Jonathan -- Jonathan Sterne, Professor Department of Art History and Communication Studies McGill University http://sterneworks.org http://mcgill.ca/ahcs http://media.mcgill.ca MP3: The Meaning of a Format < http://www.dukeupress.edu/Catalog/ViewProduct.php?productid=47544> (Duke, 2012) _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 9 00:46:58 2013 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:46:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi Mike, All I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. Emerging you would hope? In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I used a case study of an elderly lady living alone. Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not really identify with this scenario. The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except in extremis.? In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' in comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently experienced in the UK. Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two years (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might mean family have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate people maintaining their independence with other sources of support. You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of a 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some sort? In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately 'screening'. I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems - GIS to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors are referring people, which are not and if so why not? There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers 'challenging behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, through to family and communities. When medical language is introduced then 'sense making' is radically altered (of course)? The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without scaremongering)? http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and-diabetes-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k The cultural expectations around driving could also be very interesting, having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. This will (is) not easy for a great many people. Hope this helps. Peter Jones Lancashire, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care http://twitter.com/h2cm On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: Facinating. The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of age/health and memory seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As Geraldine suggests word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter reveals himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. And look at the geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires a corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. Am I tracking this right?? (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia)? ?:-)) mike On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as public) need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-locked.html > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several dimensions. > >Regards, > >? >Peter Jones >Lancashire, UK >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer wrote: > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help them do so. > >Martin > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, >?sorry. I wonder to what extent >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are >> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors >> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping >> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I >> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and >> aging ? >> Thanks for your help ! >> Best regards, >> LK >> >> >> 2013/12/8 mike cole >> >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >>> mikec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >>>> Best, >>>> LK >>>> >>> >>> > From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Mon Dec 9 01:18:52 2013 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:18:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I heard Stephen Wey from York St John Uni give a fascinating account of working with dementia patients. He was talking about using the notion of ZPD in their treatment and assessment, showing that where the patients were in more familiar environments their memories and coping strategies were a whole load better than in an alien hospital environment. I have lost the link to his slides, sadly. I gave Stephen this group info, so it would be great if he would contact us all! Shirley On 9 Dec 2013, at 08:46, peter jones wrote: > Hi Mike, All > > I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally > orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the > challenges. Emerging you would hope? > > > In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. > I used a case study of an elderly lady living alone. > Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could > not really identify with this scenario. > The family would assure the well-being of their family member, > except in extremis. > In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' in > comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently > experienced in the UK. > > > Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past > two years (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This > might mean family have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative > in hospital. > > > There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate > people maintaining their independence with other sources of support. > > You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence > of a 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure > of some sort? > > In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of > Hodges' model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent > the problem is. Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or > more accurately 'screening'. > > I have advocated for more local use of geographic information > systems - GIS to consider such activities. For example, which > family doctors are referring people, which are not and if so why not? > > There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers > 'challenging behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, > through to family and communities. When medical language is > introduced then 'sense making' is radically altered (of course)? > > The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a > connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without > scaremongering)? > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers- > and-diabetes-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k > > The cultural expectations around driving could also be very > interesting, having the grace to give up the car when the time > comes. This will (is) not easy for a great many people. > > Hope this helps. > > > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole > wrote: > > Facinating. > The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of > age/health and memory > seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. > As Geraldine suggests > word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss > and Peter reveals > himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question > provoked. And look at the > geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." > > Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns > of say, dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most > civilized practices? Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the > kinds of issues changing demographics will pose socially and > economically, which I think requires a corresponding shift in > cultural practices and their associated meanins. > > Am I tracking this right? > (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) > :-)) > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones > wrote: > > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? >> >> Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and >> policy. With an ageing population we (health services - private as >> well as public) need older adults to retain their independence and >> if needed to be cared for at home and to die at home and not in >> hospital. >> >> >> The following may help in specifics around dementia. >> >> http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist% >> 20nurses.pdf >> >> Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. >> >> I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of >> liberty: >> >> http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing- >> minutia-of-locked.html >> >> There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate >> several dimensions. >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Peter Jones >> Lancashire, UK >> Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" >> http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ >> Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model >> http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ >> h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care >> http://twitter.com/h2cm >> >> >> >> On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >> I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural >> *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely >> responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and >> elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one >> knows their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to >> have a place in the family, their relatives know what they need to >> recall and can do so for them, or help them do so. >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, >> sorry. I wonder to what extent >>> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic >>> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who >>> are >>> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors >>> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. >>> relating to >>> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of >>> Alzheimer >>> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping >>> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of >>> our memory >>> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, >>> and I >>> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. >>> Which cultural >>> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory >>> problems and >>> aging ? >>> Thanks for your help ! >>> Best regards, >>> LK >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/8 mike cole >>> >>>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer >>>> to that >>>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >>>> mikec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is >>>>> affected by >>>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point >>>>> me to ? >>>>> Best, >>>>> LK >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> Shirley Franklin Timbercombe Barn Sway Road, Brockenhurst SO42 7RX Mob: 07958745802 s.franklin08@btinternet.com From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Dec 9 07:07:00 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 07:07:00 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Peter, Your comment, that Columbia is in *THIS SENSE RICH* while the common practice of housing the elderly in Britain is alienating and deadly lonely seems to be the central *germ*. *Rich* then may be an analogy for *flourishing* or *right relation* and we return once more to the way we construct antinomies around possessive self-will and mastery and freedom which contrast with other more communal notions of flourishing. The cultural expectations developed around persons who live alone may also partially explain why they need to keep driving to keep their *independence* [keep connected]. China, with it's one child policy and the vast migrations to the city is an *experiment* that is now having profound repercussions for the elderly as they are living alone which contrasts with previous values. [and as China becomes richer] Larry On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:46 AM, peter jones wrote: > Hi Mike, All > > I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally > orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. > Emerging you would hope? > > > In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I used > a case study of an elderly lady living alone. > Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not > really identify with this scenario. > The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except in > extremis. > In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' in > comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently experienced in the > UK. > > > Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two years > (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might mean family > have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. > > > There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate people > maintaining their independence with other sources of support. > > You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of a > 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some sort? > > In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' > model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. > Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately > 'screening'. > > I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems - > GIS to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors are > referring people, which are not and if so why not? > > There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers > 'challenging behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, through > to family and communities. When medical language is introduced then 'sense > making' is radically altered (of course)? > > The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a > connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without > scaremongering)? > > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and-diabetes-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k > > The cultural expectations around driving could also be very interesting, > having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. This will (is) not > easy for a great many people. > > Hope this helps. > > > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: > > Facinating. > The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of > age/health and memory > seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As > Geraldine suggests > word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter > reveals > himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. > And look at the > geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." > > Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, > dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? > Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing > demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires a > corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. > > Am I tracking this right? > (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) > :-)) > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: > > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > > > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and > policy. With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as > public) need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be > cared for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > > > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > > > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > > > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > > > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > > > > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-locked.html > > > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several > dimensions. > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Peter Jones > >Lancashire, UK > >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural > *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely > responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and > elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one knows > their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place > in the family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so > for them, or help them do so. > > > >Martin > > > > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > > >> Hi Mike, > >> > >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, > > sorry. I wonder to what extent > >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > >> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > >> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating > to > >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of > Alzheimer > >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > >> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our > memory > >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > >> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which > cultural > >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > >> aging ? > >> Thanks for your help ! > >> Best regards, > >> LK > >> > >> > >> 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> > >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to > that > >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. > >>> mikec > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer < > laure.kloetzer@gmail.com>wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected > by > >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > >>>> Best, > >>>> LK > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > From nataliag@sfu.ca Mon Dec 9 08:06:31 2013 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Ukraine In-Reply-To: <088aeaac5f6545ee82dfa2161f07ed09@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1567871276.249699.1386605191921.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Hi Peter, Thank you for sharing. Your student's account is a correct one - everyone who has a family/friend in Ukraine worried because nobody knows what will develop in the next few days. I just came back from Ukraine and can add that lots of people feel that something bad is about to happen at Maidan square in Kiev again. Another police attack on the protesters would be followed by incredible government lies to justify the violence and would stir even more resistance, I am sure. Lots of professors are siding with those students who were brutally bitten up on the Maidan by special forces a week ago. Very tense situation right now. Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Smagorinsky" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:06:46 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] ?FW: Ukraine Sent by one of our doctoral students to a colleague: I am very thankful that you emailed me about the events in Ukraine. They are presented in the US mass media and they are shown with much less detailed information and they often generalize things. For instance, right now more than 1 million people are on the Independent Square and about approx. 4 million all around in Ukraine. The Ukrainians in other countries are protesting in the biggest cities. But in the US press, we don?t see this. My family here, in Ukraine, and Belarus - we are all nervous and we are watching live broadcasting of the events. Today is the biggest official peaceful protest. Yesterday, the European Union diplomats voiced their opinions: EU is supporting this protest. They say it is the biggest peaceful protest ever seen. However, no one knows how everything will go. The president is given 48 hours to dismiss the government and to free political prisoners. Honestly, after mass beating of students, which was ordered by the president, he never faced the people. He went to China, then to Russia, and now he is hiding (watching the protest at home or somewhere else). What we are seeing now in Ukraine is unbelievable. Thanks to today?s technology, we can follow the biggest hearts beating together on EuroMaidan. As you use the quote from Steve Jobs: ?Technology alone is not enough?? I agree. We see how humanity works with technology. No one knows how the things will go. The wise opinion was expressed by Dr. Tymothy Snyder, who is an American historian and Professor of History at Yale. He wrote the best books about Ukraine and the post-Soviet area ? Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010). This book is a ?must? for the students who are taking the classes about ideology and totalitarian regime. Here is a link to his opinion on the current events: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/dec/05/ukraine-protests-way-out/ As to my part in the Ukrainian events, we - my husband and I - are helping by translating the information (I will share two documents that I was working on in order to bring the information to the wider audience). My husband is from Belarus, so for people of Belarus these events represent a step for their own try to go against President Lukashenko. I am adding a picture of Kyiv (was done about two hours ago) and I am adding the letter from the writers. If you want to share it with colleagues, please do. Here is a link to people who want to help Maidan, since it has been the 17th day that people are out on the frosty and cold weather: http://www.uuarc.org/ From nataliag@sfu.ca Mon Dec 9 08:06:31 2013 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Ukraine In-Reply-To: <088aeaac5f6545ee82dfa2161f07ed09@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1567871276.249699.1386605191921.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Hi Peter, Thank you for sharing. Your student's account is a correct one - everyone who has a family/friend in Ukraine worried because nobody knows what will develop in the next few days. I just came back from Ukraine and can add that lots of people feel that something bad is about to happen at Maidan square in Kiev again. Another police attack on the protesters would be followed by incredible government lies to justify the violence and would stir even more resistance, I am sure. Lots of professors are siding with those students who were brutally bitten up on the Maidan by special forces a week ago. Very tense situation right now. Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Smagorinsky" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:06:46 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] ?FW: Ukraine Sent by one of our doctoral students to a colleague: I am very thankful that you emailed me about the events in Ukraine. They are presented in the US mass media and they are shown with much less detailed information and they often generalize things. For instance, right now more than 1 million people are on the Independent Square and about approx. 4 million all around in Ukraine. The Ukrainians in other countries are protesting in the biggest cities. But in the US press, we don?t see this. My family here, in Ukraine, and Belarus - we are all nervous and we are watching live broadcasting of the events. Today is the biggest official peaceful protest. Yesterday, the European Union diplomats voiced their opinions: EU is supporting this protest. They say it is the biggest peaceful protest ever seen. However, no one knows how everything will go. The president is given 48 hours to dismiss the government and to free political prisoners. Honestly, after mass beating of students, which was ordered by the president, he never faced the people. He went to China, then to Russia, and now he is hiding (watching the protest at home or somewhere else). What we are seeing now in Ukraine is unbelievable. Thanks to today?s technology, we can follow the biggest hearts beating together on EuroMaidan. As you use the quote from Steve Jobs: ?Technology alone is not enough?? I agree. We see how humanity works with technology. No one knows how the things will go. The wise opinion was expressed by Dr. Tymothy Snyder, who is an American historian and Professor of History at Yale. He wrote the best books about Ukraine and the post-Soviet area ? Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010). This book is a ?must? for the students who are taking the classes about ideology and totalitarian regime. Here is a link to his opinion on the current events: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2013/dec/05/ukraine-protests-way-out/ As to my part in the Ukrainian events, we - my husband and I - are helping by translating the information (I will share two documents that I was working on in order to bring the information to the wider audience). My husband is from Belarus, so for people of Belarus these events represent a step for their own try to go against President Lukashenko. I am adding a picture of Kyiv (was done about two hours ago) and I am adding the letter from the writers. If you want to share it with colleagues, please do. Here is a link to people who want to help Maidan, since it has been the 17th day that people are out on the frosty and cold weather: http://www.uuarc.org/ From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Mon Dec 9 15:28:08 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 01:28:08 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Convencion Message-ID: http://www.lajiribilla.co.cu/2010/n474_06/book/book.html From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Mon Dec 9 16:42:30 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:42:30 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01cef540$b5c8c970$215a5c50$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Hello, everyone! This thread is way too exciting to just sit on the sidelines. I am invested in this because I did time with my aging grandmother, and abused her in my ignorance of how to deal with the frustration of "dementia" without a social network to support. Only my father "laying down the law" so to speak, got "the family" to put my grandmother in a retirement home. Which was horrible. All she had was one picture of the dog in a frame. Three dresses. Hospital gown. (Sigh.) Shift to Japan and teaching a GST discussion seminar. I'm toying with a phrase, "Where Humanity meets Science and Technology". Also, I have a unique opportunity to give two lectures to Engineering students about CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) which leads almost directly to Ethics. And not the ethics of THE BOTTOM LINE. There has been work done with this, such as 3BL (3 Bottom Lines) Financial Capital, Social Capital, and Natural Capital. For example, UK and "austerity programs". My friend had to intervene to get a parent out of a home because they would not re-evaluate certain tests, reports of deliberately starving and putting water out of reach. He is a priest and a very conservative person and is not making this up. He has real friends who experience the impact of these policies for themselves and their parents. I am in Japan. I had to make a choice between an "insurance backed" rehabilitation hospital and rehabilitation with my "dysfunctional" family. Family wins hands down, because I know, I have been here for 33 years and had two babies, I know what the nursing staff and rehabilitation staff will do and what they won't. Not wanting to toss myself in a self-devised oubliette, I want to talk about this for real. I am nearly 60, my mother is still alive, and this is all very real to me in lived-life personal ways. I know something of the experiences of students whom I teach, who are entering adulthood with the voices and classes of a team of teacher and staff who are tasked with helping them enter adulthood, and take on the full responsibility of a member of society. 20 seems really young! I have a feeling that my dashed out note may not survive coherence tests, but the key is quality of life, and richness is cultural, and human richness abides in a loved familiar environment. This connects to the old and the very young. Some studies have linked SIDS to being a very lonely baby. Of course I "cherry-pick" my stuff according to my bias. Valerie -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of peter jones Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 5:47 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture Hi Mike, All I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. Emerging you would hope? In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I used a case study of an elderly lady living alone. Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not really identify with this scenario. The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except in extremis. In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' in comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently experienced in the UK. Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two years (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might mean family have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate people maintaining their independence with other sources of support. You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of a 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some sort? In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately 'screening'. I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems - GIS to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors are referring people, which are not and if so why not? There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers 'challenging behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, through to family and communities. When medical language is introduced then 'sense making' is radically altered (of course)? The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without scaremongering)? http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and-diabet es-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k The cultural expectations around driving could also be very interesting, having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. This will (is) not easy for a great many people. Hope this helps. Peter Jones Lancashire, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care http://twitter.com/h2cm On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: Facinating. The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of age/health and memory seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As Geraldine suggests word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter reveals himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. And look at the geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires a corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. Am I tracking this right?? (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia)? ?:-)) mike On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as public) need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-l ocked.html > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several dimensions. > >Regards, > >? >Peter Jones >Lancashire, UK >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer wrote: > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help them do so. > >Martin > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, >?sorry. I wonder to what extent >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are >> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors >> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating to >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of Alzheimer >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping >> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our memory >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I >> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which cultural >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and >> aging ? >> Thanks for your help ! >> Best regards, >> LK >> >> >> 2013/12/8 mike cole >> >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to that >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. >>> mikec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected by >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? >>>> Best, >>>> LK >>>> >>> >>> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Dec 10 10:33:59 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:33:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: <007d01cef540$b5c8c970$215a5c50$@shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <007d01cef540$b5c8c970$215a5c50$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: What you remind us of, Valerie, that the problem under discussion is pervasively felt in our various social worlds with their various ways of organizing human relations in the face of scarcity. It is part aging of some populations, devestated economies of others, ecological devestgation of others..... the kill-for hopes and fears of others. About care at home. A friend of mine who was born in a small, poor, Vermont town around 1915 once talked about the way that the old folks in his town were cared for at home. When they could no longer able to care for themselves, they were given a space in the attic or a back room where there was no heat.... kind of like being assigned to an ice flow. My aunt, who lived in NYC from about 1945 until her death a few years ago, lived in one of those alienated apartment buildings. But she lived opposite the mailboxes and over time her apartment became a late night refuge for neighbors dragging in from long work days, or to pick up packages the mailman could not leave at the post-box. She died among a veritable building full of people caring for her. I believe (Peter will know) that there is ample evidence to show that simple conversational practices where, for example, college kids come visiting to chat about what they are doing and in turn getting their elderly and memory-challenged interlocutors chatting about anything at all, but about what they did that day, what they saw on television, what they used to do when they were young, recuperates all sorts of function. It does not require a rocket scientist to create a zoped. And culture has everything to do with it! mike On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:42 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > Hello, everyone! > This thread is way too exciting to just sit on the sidelines. I am > invested > in this because I did time with my aging grandmother, and abused her in my > ignorance of how to deal with the frustration of "dementia" without a > social > network to support. Only my father "laying down the law" so to speak, got > "the family" to put my grandmother in a retirement home. Which was > horrible. All she had was one picture of the dog in a frame. Three > dresses. > Hospital gown. (Sigh.) > > Shift to Japan and teaching a GST discussion seminar. I'm toying with a > phrase, "Where Humanity meets Science and Technology". Also, I have a > unique opportunity to give two lectures to Engineering students about CSR > (Corporate Social Responsibility) which leads almost directly to Ethics. > And not the ethics of THE BOTTOM LINE. There has been work done with this, > such as 3BL (3 Bottom Lines) Financial Capital, Social Capital, and Natural > Capital. > > For example, UK and "austerity programs". My friend had to intervene to > get > a parent out of a home because they would not re-evaluate certain tests, > reports of deliberately starving and putting water out of reach. He is a > priest and a very conservative person and is not making this up. He has > real friends who experience the impact of these policies for themselves and > their parents. I am in Japan. I had to make a choice between an "insurance > backed" rehabilitation hospital and rehabilitation with my "dysfunctional" > family. Family wins hands down, because I know, I have been here for 33 > years and had two babies, I know what the nursing staff and rehabilitation > staff will do and what they won't. > > Not wanting to toss myself in a self-devised oubliette, I want to talk > about > this for real. I am nearly 60, my mother is still alive, and this is all > very real to me in lived-life personal ways. I know something of the > experiences of students whom I teach, who are entering adulthood with the > voices and classes of a team of teacher and staff who are tasked with > helping them enter adulthood, and take on the full responsibility of a > member of society. 20 seems really young! > > I have a feeling that my dashed out note may not survive coherence tests, > but the key is quality of life, and richness is cultural, and human > richness > abides in a loved familiar environment. This connects to the old and the > very young. Some studies have linked SIDS to being a very lonely baby. Of > course I "cherry-pick" my stuff according to my bias. > Valerie > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of peter jones > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 5:47 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture > > Hi Mike, All > > I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally > orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. > Emerging you would hope? > > > In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I used a > case study of an elderly lady living alone. > Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not > really > identify with this scenario. > The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except in > extremis. In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' > in comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently experienced in > the UK. > > > Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two years > (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might mean family > have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. > > > There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate people > maintaining their independence with other sources of support. > > You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of a > 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some sort? > > In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' > model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. > Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately > 'screening'. > > I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems - GIS > to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors are > referring > people, which are not and if so why not? > > There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers 'challenging > behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, through to family and > communities. When medical language is introduced then 'sense making' is > radically altered (of course)? > > The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a > connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without > scaremongering)? > > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and-diabet > es-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k > > The cultural expectations around driving could also be very interesting, > having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. This will (is) not > easy for a great many people. > > Hope this helps. > > > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: > > Facinating. > The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of > age/health and memory > seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As > Geraldine suggests > word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter > reveals > himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. > And > look at the > geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." > > Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, > dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? > Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing > demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires a > corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. > > Am I tracking this right? > (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) > :-)) > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: > > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > > > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. > With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as public) > need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared > for > at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > > > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > > > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > > > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > > > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > > > > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-l > ocked.html > > > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several > dimensions. > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Peter Jones > >Lancashire, UK > >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural *practices* > of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for > remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to put > old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in > cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their > relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help > them > do so. > > > >Martin > > > > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > > >> Hi Mike, > >> > >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, > > sorry. I wonder to what extent > >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > >> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > >> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating > to > >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of > Alzheimer > >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > >> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our > memory > >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > >> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which > cultural > >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems and > >> aging ? > >> Thanks for your help ! > >> Best regards, > >> LK > >> > >> > >> 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> > >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to > that > >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. > >>> mikec > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is affected > by > >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > >>>> Best, > >>>> LK > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > From goncu@uic.edu Tue Dec 10 14:30:49 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:30:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] UIC-College of Education Dean Search Message-ID: <369412d3a4e47c542e7a6b1ac1cd5340.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> fyi __________________________ Dear Colleagues: We are writing with an update on the search to identify UIC's next Dean of Education. The committee, with the assistance of the search firm of Witt/Kieffer, has begun the recruitment process. The position advertisement can be found at https://jobs.uic.edu/job-board/job-details?jobID=36281&job=dean-of-the-college-of-education. We appreciate your participation in the search process, through nominating candidates, encouraging them to apply, interviewing finalists, and providing input to the search committee. We are confident that with your support the committee will be able to identify an outstanding set of finalists for interviews. Sincerely, Creasie Finney Hairston, Dean of the Jane Addams College of Social Work Astrida Orle Tantillo, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Tue Dec 10 18:21:45 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:21:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <007d01cef540$b5c8c970$215a5c50$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <00b401cef617$c08f4aa0$41addfe0$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Thank you, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+vwilk=inf.shizuoka.ac.jp@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+vwilk=inf.shizuoka.ac.jp@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:34 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture What you remind us of, Valerie, that the problem under discussion is pervasively felt in our various social worlds with their various ways of organizing human relations in the face of scarcity. It is part aging of some populations, devestated economies of others, ecological devestgation of others..... the kill-for hopes and fears of others. About care at home. A friend of mine who was born in a small, poor, Vermont town around 1915 once talked about the way that the old folks in his town were cared for at home. When they could no longer able to care for themselves, they were given a space in the attic or a back room where there was no heat.... kind of like being assigned to an ice flow. My aunt, who lived in NYC from about 1945 until her death a few years ago, lived in one of those alienated apartment buildings. But she lived opposite the mailboxes and over time her apartment became a late night refuge for neighbors dragging in from long work days, or to pick up packages the mailman could not leave at the post-box. She died among a veritable building full of people caring for her. I believe (Peter will know) that there is ample evidence to show that simple conversational practices where, for example, college kids come visiting to chat about what they are doing and in turn getting their elderly and memory-challenged interlocutors chatting about anything at all, but about what they did that day, what they saw on television, what they used to do when they were young, recuperates all sorts of function. It does not require a rocket scientist to create a zoped. And culture has everything to do with it! mike On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:42 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > Hello, everyone! > This thread is way too exciting to just sit on the sidelines. I am > invested in this because I did time with my aging grandmother, and > abused her in my ignorance of how to deal with the frustration of > "dementia" without a social network to support. Only my father > "laying down the law" so to speak, got "the family" to put my > grandmother in a retirement home. Which was horrible. All she had > was one picture of the dog in a frame. Three dresses. > Hospital gown. (Sigh.) > > Shift to Japan and teaching a GST discussion seminar. I'm toying with > a phrase, "Where Humanity meets Science and Technology". Also, I have > a unique opportunity to give two lectures to Engineering students > about CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) which leads almost directly to Ethics. > And not the ethics of THE BOTTOM LINE. There has been work done with > this, such as 3BL (3 Bottom Lines) Financial Capital, Social Capital, > and Natural Capital. > > For example, UK and "austerity programs". My friend had to intervene > to get a parent out of a home because they would not re-evaluate > certain tests, reports of deliberately starving and putting water out > of reach. He is a priest and a very conservative person and is not > making this up. He has real friends who experience the impact of > these policies for themselves and their parents. I am in Japan. I had > to make a choice between an "insurance backed" rehabilitation hospital > and rehabilitation with my "dysfunctional" > family. Family wins hands down, because I know, I have been here for > 33 years and had two babies, I know what the nursing staff and > rehabilitation staff will do and what they won't. > > Not wanting to toss myself in a self-devised oubliette, I want to talk > about this for real. I am nearly 60, my mother is still alive, and > this is all very real to me in lived-life personal ways. I know > something of the experiences of students whom I teach, who are > entering adulthood with the voices and classes of a team of teacher > and staff who are tasked with helping them enter adulthood, and take > on the full responsibility of a member of society. 20 seems really > young! > > I have a feeling that my dashed out note may not survive coherence > tests, but the key is quality of life, and richness is cultural, and > human richness abides in a loved familiar environment. This connects > to the old and the very young. Some studies have linked SIDS to being > a very lonely baby. Of course I "cherry-pick" my stuff according to my > bias. > Valerie > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of peter jones > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 5:47 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture > > Hi Mike, All > > I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally > orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. > Emerging you would hope? > > > In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I > used a case study of an elderly lady living alone. > Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not > really identify with this scenario. > The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except > in extremis. In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be 'rich' > in comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently > experienced in the UK. > > > Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two > years (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might > mean family have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. > > > There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate > people maintaining their independence with other sources of support. > > You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of > a 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some sort? > > In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' > model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. > Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately > 'screening'. > > I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems > - GIS to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors > are referring people, which are not and if so why not? > > There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers > 'challenging behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, > through to family and communities. When medical language is introduced > then 'sense making' is radically altered (of course)? > > The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a > connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without > scaremongering)? > > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and- > diabet > es-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k > > The cultural expectations around driving could also be very > interesting, having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. > This will (is) not easy for a great many people. > > Hope this helps. > > > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: > > Facinating. > The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of > age/health and memory seems to have opened up a lot of considerations > of common interest. As Geraldine suggests word meaning is a central > phenomenon associated with memory loss and Peter reveals himself as > deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. > And > look at the > geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." > > Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of > say, dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized practices? > Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues > changing demographics will pose socially and economically, which I > think requires a corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. > > Am I tracking this right? > (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) > :-)) > mike > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: > > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > > > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and policy. > With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as > public) need older adults to retain their independence and if needed > to be cared for at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > > > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > > > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.p > >df > > > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > > > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of liberty: > > > > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia > -of-l > ocked.html > > > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate > >several > dimensions. > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Peter Jones > >Lancashire, UK > >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural > >*practices* > of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for > remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend > to put old people in institutions where no one knows their history, > whereas in cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the > family, their relatives know what they need to recall and can do so > for them, or help them do so. > > > >Martin > > > > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer > > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Mike, > >> > >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, > > sorry. I wonder to what extent > >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who > >> are getting old in our current societies is related to cultural > >> factors (including social expectations towards a precise memory, > >> esp. relating > to > >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of > Alzheimer > >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our > >> sleeping cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our > >> perception of our > memory > >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, > >> and I wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. > >> Which > cultural > >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory > >> problems and aging ? > >> Thanks for your help ! > >> Best regards, > >> LK > >> > >> > >> 2013/12/8 mike cole > >> > >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer > >>> to > that > >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. > >>> mikec > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is > >>>> affected > by > >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to ? > >>>> Best, > >>>> LK > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Dec 11 07:15:09 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:15:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brooklyn College, CUNY School of Education Dean Search Message-ID: Please see: https://chroniclevitae.com/jobs/0000808997-01 Applicants will be referred to the Search Firm?s webpage, where additional information about the position, Brooklyn College, and the School of Education is available. http://www.wittkieffer.com/position/brooklyn-college-of-the-city-unive > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Dec 11 07:15:09 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:15:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Brooklyn College, CUNY School of Education Dean Search Message-ID: Please see: https://chroniclevitae.com/jobs/0000808997-01 Applicants will be referred to the Search Firm?s webpage, where additional information about the position, Brooklyn College, and the School of Education is available. http://www.wittkieffer.com/position/brooklyn-college-of-the-city-unive > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Dec 11 17:41:53 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:41:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: fyi In-Reply-To: <5F38F650-2CD2-4C16-A527-9049C5E7C3C8@manchester.edu> References: <0323E35A1923E047833F96F89422FFC157BDCC34@phoebe.manchester.edu> <5F38F650-2CD2-4C16-A527-9049C5E7C3C8@manchester.edu> Message-ID: More on moocs. Anyone want to wager how much longer the MOOC supporter's commitment to the disadvantaged and the third world will hold out? And are there reasons why moocs might better serve those who are privileged and advantaged? Thrun at least sounds committed, but will that matter in the long run? -greg ------------------------------ December 10, 2013 *After Setbacks, Online Courses Are Rethought* *By TAMAR LEWIN * Two years after a Stanford professor drew 160,000 students from around the globe to a free online course on artificial intelligence, starting what was widely viewed as a revolution in higher education, early results for such large-scale courses are disappointing, forcing a rethinking of how college instruction can best use the Internet. A study of a million users of massive open online courses, known as MOOCs, releasedthis month by the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education found that, on average, only about half of those who registered for a course ever viewed a lecture, and only about 4 percent completed the courses. Much of the hope ? and hype ? surrounding MOOCs has focused on the promise of courses for students in poor countries with little access to higher education. But a separate survey from the University of Pennsylvania released last month found that about 80 percent of those taking the university?s MOOCs had already earned a degreeof some kind. And perhaps the most publicized MOOC experiment, at San Jose State University, has turned into a flop. It was a partnership announced with great fanfare at a January news conference featuring Gov. Jerry Brown of California, a strong backer of online education. San Jose State and Udacity , a Silicon Valley company co-founded by a Stanford artificial-intelligence professor, Sebastian Thrun, would work together to offer three low-cost online introductory courses for college credit. Mr. Thrun, who had been unhappy with the low completion rates in free MOOCs, hoped to increase them by hiring online mentors to help students stick with the classes. And the university, in the heart of Silicon Valley, hoped to show its leadership in online learning, and to reach more students. But the pilot classes, of about 100 people each, failed. Despite access to the Udacity mentors, the online students last spring ? including many from a charter high school in Oakland ? did worsethan those who took the classes on campus. In the algebra class, fewer than a quarter of the students ? and only 12 percent of the high school students ? earned a passing grade. The program was suspended in July, and it is unclear when, if or how the program will resume. Neither the provost nor the president of San Jose State returned calls, and spokesmen said the university had no comment. Whatever happens at San Jose, even the loudest critics of MOOCs do not expect them to fade away. More likely, they will morph into many different shapes: Already, San Jose State is getting good results using videos from edX , a nonprofit MOOC venture, to supplement some classroom sessions, and edX is producing videos to use in some high school Advanced Placement classes. And Coursera , the largest MOOC company, is experimenting with using its courses, along with a facilitator, in small discussion classes at some United States consulates. Some MOOC pioneers are working with a different model, so-called connectivist MOOCs, which are more about the connections and communication among students than about the content delivered by a professor. ?It?s like, ?The MOOC is dead, long live the MOOC,? ? said Jonathan Rees, a Colorado State University-Pueblo professor who has expressed fears that the online courses would displace professors and be an excuse for cuts in funding. ?At the beginning everybody talked about MOOCs being entirely online, but now we?re seeing lots of things that fall in the middle, and even I see the appeal of that.? The intense publicity about MOOCs has nudged almost every university toward developing an Internet strategy. Given that the wave of publicity about MOOCs began with Mr. Thrun?s artificial-intelligence course, it is fitting that he has become emblematic of a reset in the thinking about MOOCs, after a profile in Fast Company magazinethat described him as moving away from college classes in favor of vocational training in partnerships with corporations that would pay a fee. Many educators saw the move as an admission of defeat for the idea that online courses would democratize higher education ? and confirmation that, at its core, Udacity, a company funded with venture capital, was more interested in profits than in helping to educate underserved students. ?Sebastian Thrun put himself out there as a little bit of a lightning rod,? said George Siemens, a MOOC pioneer who got funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for research on MOOCs, and last week convened the researchers at the University of Texas at Arlington to discuss their early results. ?Whether he intended it or not, that article marks a substantial turning point in the conversation around MOOCs.? The profile quoted Mr. Thrun as saying the Udacity MOOCs were ?a lousy product? and ?not a good fit? for disadvantaged students, unleashing a torrent of commentary in the higher-education blogosphere. Mr. Thrun took issue with the article, and said he had never concluded that MOOCs could not work for any particular group of students. ?I care about education for everyone, not just the elite,? he said in an interview. ?We want to bring high-quality education to everyone, and set up everyone for success. My commitment is unchanged.? While he said he was ?super-excited? about working with corporations to improve job skills, Mr. Thrun said he was working with San Jose State to revamp the software so that future students could have more time to work through the courses. ?To all those people who declared our experiment a failure, you have to understand how innovation works,? he wrote on his blog. ?Few ideas work on the first try. Iteration is key to innovation. We are seeing significant improvement in learning outcomes and student engagement. ? Some draw an analogy to mobile phones, which took several generations to progress from clunky and unreliable to indispensable. Mr. Thrun stressed that results from the second round of the San Jose experiment over the summer were much improved, with the online algebra and statistics students doing better than their on-campus counterparts. Comparisons are murky, though, since the summer classes were open to all, and half the students already had degrees. Some San Jose professors said they found the MOOC material useful and were disappointed that the pilot was halted. ?We had great results in the summer, so I?m surprised that it?s not going forward,? said Julie Sliva, who taught the college algebra course. ?I?m still using the Udacity videos to support another course, because they?re very helpful.? Mr. Siemens said what was happening was part of a natural process. ?We?re moving from the hype to the implementation,? he said. ?It?s exciting to see universities saying, ?Fine, you woke us up,? and beginning to grapple with how the Internet can change the university, how it doesn?t have to be all about teaching 25 people in a room. ?Now that we have the technology to teach 100,000 students online,? he said, ?the next challenge will be scaling creativity, and finding a way that even in a class of 100,000, adaptive learning can give each student a personal experience.? -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Thu Dec 12 03:26:31 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:26:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: [Comunicar 42]: Revolution in Education? Computer Support for Collaborative Learning (CSCL) In-Reply-To: <0bf4ef1e187241ecc33335bbbc3cc64d@ale> References: <0bf4ef1e187241ecc33335bbbc3cc64d@ale> Message-ID: Available in Spanish and English. From: Comunicar Researchers [mailto:researchers@grupocomunicar.com] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 3:54 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: [Comunicar 42]: Revolution in Education? Computer Support for Collaborative Learning (CSCL) We inform you that the preprint version of ?Comunicar?, 42, has been recently published with the suggestive title: "Revolution in Education? Computer Support for Collaborative Learning (CSCL)". All articles are available full text and free of charge on our official website. ------------------------- Collaborative Construction of a Project as a Methodology to Acquire Digital Competences Mar?a P?rez Mateo, Marc Romero Carbonell & Teresa Romeu Fontanillas. Barcelona (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-01 Planning Collaborative Learning in Virtual Environments Nuria Hern?ndez Sell?s, Mercedes Gonz?lez Sanmamed & Pablo C?sar Mu?oz Carril. Madrid, A Coru?a & Santiago de Compostela (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-02 Construction of the Foundations of the PLE and PLN for Collaborative Learning Victoria Mar?n Juarros, Francisca Negre Bennasar & Adolfina P?rez Garcias. Palma de Mallorca (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-03 Audioblogs and Tvblogs, Tools for the Collaborative Learning in Journalism Nereida L?pez Vidales & Patricia Gonz?lez Aldea. Valladolid & Madrid (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-04 Collaboration and Social Networking in Higher Education Adriana Gewerc Barujel, Lourdes Montero Mesa & Manuel Lama Pen?n. Santiago de Compostela (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-05 ICT in collaborative learning in the classroom of elementary and secondary education Ana Garc?a-Valc?rcel Mu?oz-Repiso, Ver?nica Basilotta G?mez-Pablos & Camino L?pez Garc?a. Salamanca (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-06 Meaning Processes mediated through a Protagonists' Collaborative Learning Platform Marcelo Arancibia Herrera, Iv?n Oliva Figueroa & Francisco Paiva Cornejo. Valdivia (Chile). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-07 Exploring Student and Teacher's Perception of E-textbooks in a Primary School Janaina Minelli de Oliveira, Mar Camacho i Mart? & Merc? Gisbert Cervera. Tarragona (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-08 A Community of Practice: An Intervention Model based on Computer Supported Collaborative Learning Mar?a Rosa Fern?ndez S?nchez & Jes?s Valverde Berrocoso. C?ceres (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-09 Design Thinking and Collaborative Learning Teemu Leinonen & Eva Durall Gazulla. Helsinki (Finland). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-10 Primary School Second Grade Teachers' and Students' Opinions on Media Literacy Emine Sur, Emre ?nal & Kamil Iseries. Konya & Nigde (Turkey). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-11 Empowering Media Citizenship through Educommunication Vicent Goz?lvez P?rez & Paloma Contreras Pulido. Valencia & Huelva (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-12 Media Literacy and Information Literacy: Similarities and Differences Alice Lee & Clement So. Hong Kong (China). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-13 Adolescent Students as Media Fictional Characters Laia Falc?n D?az-Aguado & Mar?a Jos? D?az-Aguado Jal?n. Madrid (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-14 Researching on and with Young People: Collaborating and Educating Mar?a Domingo Coscollola, Joan Anton S?nchez Valero & Juana Mar?a Sancho Gil. Barcelona (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-15 Educational Possibilities of Social Networks and Group Work. University Students' Perceptions Julio Cabero Almenara & Ver?nica Mar?n D?az. Sevilla & C?rdoba (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-16 Media Literacy for Older People Facing the Digital Divide: The e-Inclusion Programs Design Leopoldo Abad Alcal?. Madrid (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-17 College Students' Views about the Journalism Education in Spain Mar?a Luisa Humanes Humanes & Sergio Roses Campos. Madrid & M?laga (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-18 Critical Analysis of Government vs. Commercial Advertising Discourse on Older Persons in Spain Susana de Andr?s del Campo & Rosa de Lima Maestro. Segovia (Spain). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-19 Digital Media in Ecuador - Future Perspectives Mar?a Isabel Pun?n Larrea, Alison Mart?nez & Nathaly Rencoret. Loja (Ecuador). http://dx.doi.org/10.3916/C42-2014-20 ------------------------- This is a research and academic contact, not commercial. If you do not want to receive any other mail, please click here to unsubscribe: http://www.revistacomunicar.com/novedades/unsuscribe.php?email=smago@uga.edu From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Dec 12 06:52:43 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:52:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone out there who wants to spend the winter months in San Diego? Short notice. Mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *David Serlin* Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013 Subject: [commfac] needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course To: Commfac Dear colleagues, due to competing commitments Carol has had to step down from teaching her Language & Globalization course (COMM 112G) in W14. The course has 85+ students enrolled, and so it would be a shame if we had to cancel it. Can anyone recommend a person who might be able to step in at such late notice and teach this course? We have funds to hire the right person, so any leads are appreciated. Many of the grad students Carol and others identified as possible instructors for the course?such as James Perez, Michaela, Deniz?are not available. Here?s the catalogue description for those who are unfamiliar with the course and/or how it fits into the curriculum: *The interaction of language and culture in human communication. New and old languages, standard and dialect, dominant and endangered are the special focus. Selected languages as examples of how languages exist in contemporary contexts. Students will not receive credit for COHI 135 and COMM 112G. Prerequisites: COMM 10.* Thanks David David Serlin, Chair Department of Communication UC San Diego 9500 Gilman Drive La Jolla, CA 92093-0503 USA phone: 858-534-9198 email: dserlin@ucsd.edu From acortese@me.com Thu Dec 12 07:16:06 2013 From: acortese@me.com (ANTONELLA CORTESE) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F5FF7AB-9B6A-4526-9267-5C8B109086FE@me.com> Hi there, thank for this. I have forwarded it to a friend in Ft. Wayne Indiana who has her PhD in Education and extensive experience in what you describe below as she has worked with indigenous populations in Guatemala, El Salvador and Mexico, to name a few in the area of language, dialect and dying languages. Best, Antonella Cortese On Dec 12, 2013, at 7:52 AM, mike cole wrote: > Anyone out there who wants to spend the winter months in San Diego? Short > notice. > Mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *David Serlin* > Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013 > Subject: [commfac] needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course > To: Commfac > > > Dear colleagues, due to competing commitments Carol has had to step down > from teaching her Language & Globalization course (COMM 112G) in W14. The > course has 85+ students enrolled, and so it would be a shame if we had to > cancel it. Can anyone recommend a person who might be able to step in at > such late notice and teach this course? > > We have funds to hire the right person, so any leads are appreciated. Many > of the grad students Carol and others identified as possible instructors > for the course?such as James Perez, Michaela, Deniz?are not available. > > Here?s the catalogue description for those who are unfamiliar with the > course and/or how it fits into the curriculum: > *The interaction of language and culture in human communication. New and > old languages, standard and dialect, dominant and endangered are the > special focus. Selected languages as examples of how languages exist in > contemporary contexts. Students will not receive credit for COHI 135 and > COMM 112G. Prerequisites: COMM 10.* > > Thanks > David > > David Serlin, Chair > Department of Communication > UC San Diego > 9500 Gilman Drive > La Jolla, CA 92093-0503 USA > > phone: 858-534-9198 > email: dserlin@ucsd.edu From acortese@me.com Thu Dec 12 07:16:06 2013 From: acortese@me.com (ANTONELLA CORTESE) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F5FF7AB-9B6A-4526-9267-5C8B109086FE@me.com> Hi there, thank for this. I have forwarded it to a friend in Ft. Wayne Indiana who has her PhD in Education and extensive experience in what you describe below as she has worked with indigenous populations in Guatemala, El Salvador and Mexico, to name a few in the area of language, dialect and dying languages. Best, Antonella Cortese On Dec 12, 2013, at 7:52 AM, mike cole wrote: > Anyone out there who wants to spend the winter months in San Diego? Short > notice. > Mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *David Serlin* > Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013 > Subject: [commfac] needed: instructor for Winter 2014 course > To: Commfac > > > Dear colleagues, due to competing commitments Carol has had to step down > from teaching her Language & Globalization course (COMM 112G) in W14. The > course has 85+ students enrolled, and so it would be a shame if we had to > cancel it. Can anyone recommend a person who might be able to step in at > such late notice and teach this course? > > We have funds to hire the right person, so any leads are appreciated. Many > of the grad students Carol and others identified as possible instructors > for the course?such as James Perez, Michaela, Deniz?are not available. > > Here?s the catalogue description for those who are unfamiliar with the > course and/or how it fits into the curriculum: > *The interaction of language and culture in human communication. New and > old languages, standard and dialect, dominant and endangered are the > special focus. Selected languages as examples of how languages exist in > contemporary contexts. Students will not receive credit for COHI 135 and > COMM 112G. Prerequisites: COMM 10.* > > Thanks > David > > David Serlin, Chair > Department of Communication > UC San Diego > 9500 Gilman Drive > La Jolla, CA 92093-0503 USA > > phone: 858-534-9198 > email: dserlin@ucsd.edu From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Dec 12 10:54:15 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:54:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: JPMorgan Plans to Unveil a Program for Job Skills - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <52a9ccb5.c3e9440a.75ac.ffffd879SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <52a9ccb5.c3e9440a.75ac.ffffd879SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This story seems interesting vis a vis questions of where education is happening and not happening. fyi if you are interested. mike Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: JPMorgan Plans to Unveil a Program for Job Skills - NYTimes.com By RACHEL ABRAMS The five-year, $250 million initiative is focused on filling the skills gaps in some of the largest United States and European job markets. Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1d8JWRb To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your address book. Advertisement Copyright 2013 | The New York Times Company | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Dec 13 08:34:02 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:34:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We apologize for the delay responding: We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions and then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from observations of teaching and learning: We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies that we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said this: what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before they mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between art and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo (Mizasaki) during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to Draw a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way they work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an atelierista in the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with the children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children are one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to look. But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the children that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, is to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The teachers speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how to represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a long paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they rode that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you use? They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about color (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on the children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. In this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the stick (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this moment, it is wild!) All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make a blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, but the social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and it was a lesson about representation. A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by toilet paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two year olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE that the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses you gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does not allow it. TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you all and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in relation to this problem! Beth and Monica On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > Beth, > I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over the > past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed > ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time > when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were > passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to > buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained credibility. > It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then > shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a > sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a > post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the towering > intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the > century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions at > age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as a > key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life, > does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the > blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a door > perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler > say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the door? > Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such as > turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the > door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, naming > and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your > description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and > describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the > children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend play > that was scaffolded by the adults. > In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions > (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from 14 > months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 > months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if to > drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance'). The > gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of > pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an > imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at the > invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon > discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the > substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated with > Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book titled > Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one > (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert > van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between > play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very narrow > review of just Activity Theory based studies. > Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it > on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of Chicago. I > will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > > > > > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain > > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work > > thinking and reading in response! > > > > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, > can > > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of > it, > > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, > and > > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, > > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a > > 2013 literature review ? ). > > > > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > > > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > suspicious > > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of > the > > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a > > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget > and > > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to > > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of > > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or > > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > > > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us > > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show > > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds > are > > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > > presentations to us : ). > > > > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass > was > > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. > They > > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own > just-two > > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could > > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea > of > > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about > why I > > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my > > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really > well > > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > > > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote > > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > experiment > > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of > > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So > > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, > > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > > > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much > > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what > we > > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more > capable > > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very > young, > > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which > we > > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent > > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > > > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about > > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on > the > > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > > > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha >wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > Beth, > > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four > > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While > > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the > children to > > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here > for > > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to > use > > > symbol systems. > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And > yes, > > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think > more > > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are > posing > > > to > > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I > think > > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, > above. > > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to > ask > > > why > > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at > what > > > it > > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > Beth, > > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such > as > > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for > separating > > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a > non-replica > > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in > drawings, i. > > > e., > > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical > > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that > documented > > > this > > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on > specific > > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > > > 1991documented > > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that > the > > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for > another > > > > > (re-present another)??? > > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play > > > allows > > > > > for > > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea > what > > > this > > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship > > > between > > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > > > > > substantiate? Are > > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? > The > > > path > > > > > is > > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts > encompassed > > > > > larger > > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this > topic > > > > > can be > > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in > > > hunting > > > > > it > > > > > > > down :) > > > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > > > > > relationship > > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by > > > Swedish > > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows > Vygotsky was > > > > > correct > > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > > > > > > > Tanks, > > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > > School of Education > > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > School of Education > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > School of Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From goncu@uic.edu Fri Dec 13 09:52:10 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:52:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Hi Beth and Monica-- Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I don't remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is redundant or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development of symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to anticipate future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) I believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young children as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with children who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of play in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this idea too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that experience. A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In the 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued and showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an infant's pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In other words, something can be represented either through a very structured toy or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking place in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to symbolic development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from tree figures to geometric shapes...) Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and symbolic development will be easier to see if we understand the connection between play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is a developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get represented in play. All the best, ag On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > We apologize for the delay responding: > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions > and > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from > observations of teaching and learning: > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies that > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said this: > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before they > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between > art > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo (Mizasaki) > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to > Draw > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way they > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an atelierista > in > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with the > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children > are > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to > look. > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the children > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, is > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The teachers > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how to > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a long > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they rode > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you use? > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about color > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on the > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. In > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the > stick > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this moment, > it is wild!) > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make a > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, but the > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and it > was a lesson about representation. > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by toilet > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two year > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE that > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses > you > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does > not > allow it. > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you all > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in > relation to this problem! > > Beth and Monica > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > wrote: > >> Message from Francine: >> Beth, >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over >> the >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained >> credibility. >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the >> towering >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions >> at >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as >> a >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life, >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a >> door >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the >> door? >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such >> as >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, >> naming >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend >> play >> that was scaffolded by the adults. >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from >> 14 >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if >> to >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance'). >> The >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at >> the >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated >> with >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book >> titled >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very >> narrow >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of >> Chicago. I >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. >> >> >> >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this >> chain >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at >> work >> > thinking and reading in response! >> > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- >> Francine, >> can >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of >> it, >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, >> and >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting >> talk, >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive >> (a >> > 2013 literature review ? ). >> > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: >> > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally >> suspicious >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of >> the >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports >> a >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before >> Piaget >> and >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared >> to >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because >> of >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, >> or >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. >> > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing >> us >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They >> show >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds >> are >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long >> > presentations to us : ). >> > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass >> was >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. >> They >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own >> just-two >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, >> could >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an >> idea >> of >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about >> why I >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in >> my >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really >> well >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. >> > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we >> wrote >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal >> experiment >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . >> Of >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? >> So >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic >> thought, >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. >> > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be >> much >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending >> what >> we >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more >> capable >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very >> young, >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in >> which >> we >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the >> competent >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. >> > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less >> about >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis >> on >> the >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? >> > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha > >wrote: >> > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: >> > > Beth, >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these >> four >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of >> Chicago.While >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the >> children to >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential >> here >> for >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning >> to >> use >> > > symbol systems. >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. >> And >> yes, >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think >> more >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are >> posing >> > > to >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... >> I >> think >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, >> above. >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need >> to >> ask >> > > why >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at >> what >> > > it >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank >> you! >> > > Beth >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com >> > > >wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: >> > > > > Beth, >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play >> (such >> as >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for >> separating >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a >> non-replica >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in >> drawings, i. >> > > e., >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and >> numerical >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that >> documented >> > > this >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on >> specific >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago >> > > 1991documented >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't >> that >> the >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for >> another >> > > > > (re-present another)??? >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that >> play >> > > allows >> > > > > for >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea >> what >> > > this >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is >> fine! >> Beth >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the >> relationship >> > > between >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to >> > > > > substantiate? Are >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of >> research? >> The >> > > path >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts >> encompassed >> > > > > larger >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on >> this >> topic >> > > > > can be >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience >> in >> > > hunting >> > > > > it >> > > > > > > down :) >> > > > > > > --The other Monica >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the >> > > > > relationship >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged >> by >> > > Swedish >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows >> Vygotsky was >> > > > > correct >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! >> > > > > > > Tanks, >> > > > > > > Beth >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > > > > School of Education >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > > > School of Education >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > School of Education >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Beth Ferholt >> > Assistant Professor >> > School of Education >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From goncu@uic.edu Fri Dec 13 09:52:09 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:52:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Beth and Monica-- Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I don't remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is redundant or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development of symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to anticipate future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) I believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young children as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with children who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of play in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this idea too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that experience. A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In the 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued and showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an infant's pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In other words, something can be represented either through a very structured toy or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking place in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to symbolic development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from tree figures to geometric shapes...) Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and symbolic development will be easier to see if we understand the connection between play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is a developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get represented in play. All the best, ag On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > We apologize for the delay responding: > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions > and > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from > observations of teaching and learning: > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies that > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said this: > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before they > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between > art > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo (Mizasaki) > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to > Draw > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way they > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an atelierista > in > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with the > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children > are > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to > look. > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the children > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, is > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The teachers > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how to > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a long > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they rode > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you use? > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about color > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on the > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. In > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the > stick > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this moment, > it is wild!) > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make a > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, but the > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and it > was a lesson about representation. > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by toilet > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two year > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE that > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses > you > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does > not > allow it. > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you all > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in > relation to this problem! > > Beth and Monica > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > wrote: > >> Message from Francine: >> Beth, >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over >> the >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained >> credibility. >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the >> towering >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions >> at >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as >> a >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life, >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a >> door >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the >> door? >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such >> as >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, >> naming >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend >> play >> that was scaffolded by the adults. >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from >> 14 >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if >> to >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance'). >> The >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at >> the >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated >> with >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book >> titled >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very >> narrow >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of >> Chicago. I >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. >> >> >> >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this >> chain >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at >> work >> > thinking and reading in response! >> > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- >> Francine, >> can >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of >> it, >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, >> and >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting >> talk, >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive >> (a >> > 2013 literature review ? ). >> > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: >> > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally >> suspicious >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of >> the >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports >> a >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before >> Piaget >> and >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared >> to >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because >> of >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, >> or >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. >> > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing >> us >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They >> show >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds >> are >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long >> > presentations to us : ). >> > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass >> was >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. >> They >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own >> just-two >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, >> could >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an >> idea >> of >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about >> why I >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in >> my >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really >> well >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. >> > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we >> wrote >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal >> experiment >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . >> Of >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? >> So >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic >> thought, >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. >> > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be >> much >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending >> what >> we >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more >> capable >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very >> young, >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in >> which >> we >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the >> competent >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. >> > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less >> about >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis >> on >> the >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? >> > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha > >wrote: >> > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: >> > > Beth, >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these >> four >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of >> Chicago.While >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the >> children to >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential >> here >> for >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning >> to >> use >> > > symbol systems. >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. >> And >> yes, >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think >> more >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are >> posing >> > > to >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... >> I >> think >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, >> above. >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need >> to >> ask >> > > why >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at >> what >> > > it >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank >> you! >> > > Beth >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com >> > > >wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: >> > > > > Beth, >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play >> (such >> as >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for >> separating >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a >> non-replica >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in >> drawings, i. >> > > e., >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and >> numerical >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that >> documented >> > > this >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on >> specific >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago >> > > 1991documented >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't >> that >> the >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for >> another >> > > > > (re-present another)??? >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that >> play >> > > allows >> > > > > for >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea >> what >> > > this >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is >> fine! >> Beth >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the >> relationship >> > > between >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to >> > > > > substantiate? Are >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of >> research? >> The >> > > path >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts >> encompassed >> > > > > larger >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on >> this >> topic >> > > > > can be >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience >> in >> > > hunting >> > > > > it >> > > > > > > down :) >> > > > > > > --The other Monica >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the >> > > > > relationship >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged >> by >> > > Swedish >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows >> Vygotsky was >> > > > > correct >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! >> > > > > > > Tanks, >> > > > > > > Beth >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > > > > School of Education >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > > > School of Education >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > Beth Ferholt >> > > > Assistant Professor >> > > > School of Education >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Beth Ferholt >> > Assistant Professor >> > School of Education >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From goncu@uic.edu Fri Dec 13 13:07:08 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:07:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] [Fwd: On Behalf of Dr. Lillie West: Position Announcement] Message-ID: <846f4a9a8d46fdbf687f1b115fff356e.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> fyi ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: On Behalf of Dr. Lillie West: Position Announcement From: "Pam Via" Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 2:40 pm To: "'goncu@uic.edu'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- P.O. Box 1002 Millersville, PA 17551-0302 www.millersville.edu Elementary & Early Childhood Education Stayer Hall Phone: 717-872-3391 Fax: 717-871-5462 December 13, 2013 Dear Dr. Goncu: I am emailing you because of your knowledge of and position within the early childhood education community. The Elementary and Early Childhood Education Department at Millersville University is searching for an assistant professor of early childhood education to start August 2014. This individual will teach a range of early childhood courses focusing on infants through 4th grade. The full job description can be viewed at Millersville University's Human Resources website: https://jobs.millersville.edu. If you would like to nominate a candidate for this position, we will contact the individual and invite the person to apply. If instead you wish to make your contacts aware of this employment opportunity, please direct them to the Human Resources website above for application information. Applications must be submitted electronically no later than January 20, 2014 for full consideration. I appreciate the time you are taking to partner with us. Together we can insure that the teacher candidates graduating from the University have the best preparation possible for teaching the infants through 4th graders of the region. If you have any questions, please contact me at Lillie.West@millersville.edu or at 717-872-3389. Thank you for your help. Lillie S. West, Ed. D. Associate Professor and Director of Field Services Millersville University, 122 Stayer Hall 51 Lyte Road Millersville, PA 17551-0302 A Member of Pennsylvania's State System of Higher Education [cid:pub_res_files/image002.jpg] Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: untitled-[1.2] Url: https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131213/13b44008/attachment.ksh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5141 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131213/13b44008/attachment.jpg From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Dec 15 07:51:41 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:51:41 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: This is very very helpful, Artin. Monica and I are both about to fly to the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss and respond in a couple weeks. Thank you! Beth On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > Hi Beth and Monica-- > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I don't > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is redundant > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development of > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the > motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to anticipate > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) I > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young children > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with children > who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these > issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of play > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this idea > too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that > experience. > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In the > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued and > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an infant's > pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this > de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In other > words, something can be represented either through a very structured toy > or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking place > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to symbolic > development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from tree > figures to geometric shapes...) > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and symbolic > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection between > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is a > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get > represented in play. > > All the best, ag > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > We apologize for the delay responding: > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions > > and > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from > > observations of teaching and learning: > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies > that > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also > > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said this: > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a > > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before > they > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between > > art > > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo (Mizasaki) > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to > > Draw > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way > they > > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an atelierista > > in > > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with the > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children > > are > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to > > look. > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the > children > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, is > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The teachers > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how to > > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a long > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they > rode > > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you use? > > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this > > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about color > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on the > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. In > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the > > stick > > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this > moment, > > it is wild!) > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make a > > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with > > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, but > the > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and it > > was a lesson about representation. > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on > > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by toilet > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two year > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE that > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses > > you > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does > > not > > allow it. > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you all > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in > > relation to this problem! > > > > Beth and Monica > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > > wrote: > > > >> Message from Francine: > >> Beth, > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over > >> the > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained > >> credibility. > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the > >> towering > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions > >> at > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as > >> a > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life, > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a > >> door > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the > >> door? > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such > >> as > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, > >> naming > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend > >> play > >> that was scaffolded by the adults. > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from > >> 14 > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if > >> to > >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance'). > >> The > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at > >> the > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated > >> with > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book > >> titled > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very > >> narrow > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of > >> Chicago. I > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > >> > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this > >> chain > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at > >> work > >> > thinking and reading in response! > >> > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- > >> Francine, > >> can > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of > >> it, > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, > >> and > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting > >> talk, > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive > >> (a > >> > 2013 literature review ? ). > >> > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > >> > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > >> suspicious > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of > >> the > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports > >> a > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before > >> Piaget > >> and > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared > >> to > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because > >> of > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, > >> or > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > >> > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing > >> us > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They > >> show > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds > >> are > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > >> > presentations to us : ). > >> > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass > >> was > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. > >> They > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own > >> just-two > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, > >> could > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an > >> idea > >> of > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about > >> why I > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in > >> my > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really > >> well > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > >> > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we > >> wrote > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > >> experiment > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . > >> Of > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? > >> So > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic > >> thought, > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > >> > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be > >> much > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending > >> what > >> we > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more > >> capable > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very > >> young, > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in > >> which > >> we > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the > >> competent > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. > >> > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less > >> about > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis > >> on > >> the > >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > >> > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > >> > > Beth, > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these > >> four > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of > >> Chicago.While > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the > >> children to > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential > >> here > >> for > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning > >> to > >> use > >> > > symbol systems. > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > >> > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. > >> And > >> yes, > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think > >> more > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are > >> posing > >> > > to > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... > >> I > >> think > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, > >> above. > >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need > >> to > >> ask > >> > > why > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at > >> what > >> > > it > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank > >> you! > >> > > Beth > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com > >> > > >wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > >> > > > > Beth, > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play > >> (such > >> as > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for > >> separating > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a > >> non-replica > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in > >> drawings, i. > >> > > e., > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and > >> numerical > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that > >> documented > >> > > this > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on > >> specific > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > >> > > 1991documented > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't > >> that > >> the > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for > >> another > >> > > > > (re-present another)??? > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that > >> play > >> > > allows > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea > >> what > >> > > this > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is > >> fine! > >> Beth > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the > >> relationship > >> > > between > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > >> > > > > substantiate? Are > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of > >> research? > >> The > >> > > path > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts > >> encompassed > >> > > > > larger > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on > >> this > >> topic > >> > > > > can be > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience > >> in > >> > > hunting > >> > > > > it > >> > > > > > > down :) > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > >> > > > > relationship > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged > >> by > >> > > Swedish > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows > >> Vygotsky was > >> > > > > correct > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > >> > > > > > > Tanks, > >> > > > > > > Beth > >> > > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor > >> > > > > > > School of Education > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor > >> > > > > > School of Education > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Beth Ferholt > >> > > > Assistant Professor > >> > > > School of Education > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >> > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Beth Ferholt > >> > Assistant Professor > >> > School of Education > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >> > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Dec 15 09:52:29 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:52:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: I am remembering the discussion of playworlds and the zo-ped as helping the adults *grow up* within socratic dialogues with children. An article was referenced which I am would like to read that was referenced in the article: Cheyne, J. A and Tarulli, D (1999) Dialogue ,difference, and voice in the zone of proximal development. Theory and Psychology, 9, 5-28. If it is possible to send a cop.y I would appreciate this.. The exploration of desire and motivation and the adult being transformed [and developing] within the intersubjective engagement [and enactment] in the zo-ped is what I find fascinating. This depth of *care and concern* for the child's *voice* moving from the magisterial TO the socratic voice seems a radical [going to the root] of the zo-ped. Thanks, Larry On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > This is very very helpful, Artin. Monica and I are both about to fly to > the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss and > respond in a couple weeks. Thank you! Beth > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Beth and Monica-- > > > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I don't > > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is redundant > > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. > > > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development of > > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the > > motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, > > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an > > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to > > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to > anticipate > > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) I > > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young children > > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with children > > who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these > > issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of play > > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this idea > > too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection > > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be > > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal > > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that > > experience. > > > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In the > > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued and > > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar > > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an infant's > > pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this > > de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets > > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and > > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In other > > words, something can be represented either through a very structured toy > > or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking place > > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to > symbolic > > development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how > > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from tree > > figures to geometric shapes...) > > > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and symbolic > > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection between > > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is a > > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get > > represented in play. > > > > All the best, ag > > > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > We apologize for the delay responding: > > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions > > > and > > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from > > > observations of teaching and learning: > > > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies > > that > > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also > > > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said > this: > > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a > > > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before > > they > > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between > > > art > > > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo > (Mizasaki) > > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > > > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to > > > Draw > > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way > > they > > > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an > atelierista > > > in > > > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with > the > > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children > > > are > > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to > > > look. > > > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the > > children > > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, > is > > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation > > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The > teachers > > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful > > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how > to > > > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a long > > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they > > rode > > > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you use? > > > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this > > > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about > color > > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on the > > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. > In > > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the > > > stick > > > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this > > moment, > > > it is wild!) > > > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make > a > > > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with > > > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, but > > the > > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and > it > > > was a lesson about representation. > > > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on > > > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by > toilet > > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two > year > > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE > that > > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses > > > you > > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does > > > not > > > allow it. > > > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you > all > > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in > > > relation to this problem! > > > > > > Beth and Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > >> Beth, > > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over > > >> the > > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed > > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a > time > > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were > > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had > to > > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained > > >> credibility. > > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and > then > > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as > a > > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a > > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the > > >> towering > > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the > > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object > substitutions > > >> at > > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass > as > > >> a > > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of > life, > > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of > the > > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a > > >> door > > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the > toddler > > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the > > >> door? > > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such > > >> as > > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of > the > > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, > > >> naming > > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your > > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and > > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading > the > > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend > > >> play > > >> that was scaffolded by the adults. > > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions > > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from > > >> 14 > > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 > > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as > if > > >> to > > >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible > substance'). > > >> The > > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of > > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with > an > > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at > > >> the > > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon > > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the > > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated > > >> with > > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book > > >> titled > > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one > > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that > Bert > > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship > between > > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very > > >> narrow > > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. > > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it > > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of > > >> Chicago. I > > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > >> > > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this > > >> chain > > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at > > >> work > > >> > thinking and reading in response! > > >> > > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- > > >> Francine, > > >> can > > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it > of > > >> it, > > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language > development, > > >> and > > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting > > >> talk, > > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive > > >> (a > > >> > 2013 literature review ? ). > > >> > > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > >> > > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > > >> suspicious > > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some > of > > >> the > > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that > supports > > >> a > > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before > > >> Piaget > > >> and > > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared > > >> to > > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because > > >> of > > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young > children, > > >> or > > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > >> > > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of > showing > > >> us > > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They > > >> show > > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year > olds > > >> are > > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > > >> > presentations to us : ). > > >> > > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of > grass > > >> was > > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw > inside. > > >> They > > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own > > >> just-two > > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, > > >> could > > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an > > >> idea > > >> of > > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more > about > > >> why I > > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in > > >> my > > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew > really > > >> well > > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > >> > > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the > relationship > > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we > are > > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we > > >> wrote > > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > > >> experiment > > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) > . > > >> Of > > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not > right? > > >> So > > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic > > >> thought, > > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > >> > > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be > > >> much > > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending > > >> what > > >> we > > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more > > >> capable > > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very > > >> young, > > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in > > >> which > > >> we > > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the > > >> competent > > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after > our > > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > >> > > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less > > >> about > > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis > > >> on > > >> the > > >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > >> > > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha < > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > >> >wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > >> > > Beth, > > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these > > >> four > > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of > > >> Chicago.While > > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the > > >> children to > > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential > > >> here > > >> for > > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning > > >> to > > >> use > > >> > > symbol systems. > > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > >> > > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. > > >> And > > >> yes, > > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me > think > > >> more > > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are > > >> posing > > >> > > to > > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development > ... > > >> I > > >> think > > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my > question, > > >> above. > > >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need > > >> to > > >> ask > > >> > > why > > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient > at > > >> what > > >> > > it > > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank > > >> you! > > >> > > Beth > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > >> > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > >> > > > > Beth, > > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play > > >> (such > > >> as > > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for > > >> separating > > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a > > >> non-replica > > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in > > >> drawings, i. > > >> > > e., > > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and > > >> numerical > > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that > > >> documented > > >> > > this > > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on > > >> specific > > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > > >> > > 1991documented > > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play > (a > > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't > > >> that > > >> the > > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for > > >> another > > >> > > > > (re-present another)??? > > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that > > >> play > > >> > > allows > > >> > > > > for > > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an > idea > > >> what > > >> > > this > > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is > > >> fine! > > >> Beth > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, > > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the > > >> relationship > > >> > > between > > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > > >> > > > > substantiate? Are > > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of > > >> research? > > >> The > > >> > > path > > >> > > > > is > > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts > > >> encompassed > > >> > > > > larger > > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on > > >> this > > >> topic > > >> > > > > can be > > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my > experience > > >> in > > >> > > hunting > > >> > > > > it > > >> > > > > > > down :) > > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth > Ferholt > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on > the > > >> > > > > relationship > > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being > challenged > > >> by > > >> > > Swedish > > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows > > >> Vygotsky was > > >> > > > > correct > > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > > >> > > > > > > Tanks, > > >> > > > > > > Beth > > >> > > > > > > -- > > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > >> > > > > > > School of Education > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor > > >> > > > > > School of Education > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -- > > >> > > > Beth Ferholt > > >> > > > Assistant Professor > > >> > > > School of Education > > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Beth Ferholt > > >> > Assistant Professor > > >> > School of Education > > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > >> > > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Assistant Professor > > > School of Education > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Dec 15 14:36:13 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:36:13 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for this comment, Larry -- here is the Tarulli, and the one you mention with Robert Lecusay -- Beth On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am remembering the discussion of playworlds and the zo-ped as helping the > adults *grow up* within socratic dialogues with children. > An article was referenced which I am would like to read that was referenced > in the article: > > Cheyne, J. A and Tarulli, D (1999) Dialogue ,difference, and voice in the > zone of proximal development. Theory and Psychology, 9, 5-28. > > If it is possible to send a cop.y I would appreciate this.. > > The exploration of desire and motivation and the adult being transformed > [and developing] within the intersubjective engagement [and enactment] in > the zo-ped is what I find fascinating. This depth of *care and concern* for > the child's *voice* moving from the magisterial TO the socratic voice seems > a radical [going to the root] of the zo-ped. > Thanks, > Larry > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > This is very very helpful, Artin. Monica and I are both about to fly to > > the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss and > > respond in a couple weeks. Thank you! Beth > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Beth and Monica-- > > > > > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I > don't > > > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is > redundant > > > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. > > > > > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development > of > > > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the > > > motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, > > > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an > > > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to > > > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to > > anticipate > > > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) I > > > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young > children > > > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with > children > > > who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these > > > issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of > play > > > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this > idea > > > too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection > > > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be > > > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal > > > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that > > > experience. > > > > > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In the > > > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued and > > > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar > > > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an > infant's > > > pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this > > > de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets > > > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and > > > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In > other > > > words, something can be represented either through a very structured > toy > > > or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking > place > > > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to > > symbolic > > > development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how > > > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from > tree > > > figures to geometric shapes...) > > > > > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and > symbolic > > > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection > between > > > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is > a > > > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get > > > represented in play. > > > > > > All the best, ag > > > > > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > > We apologize for the delay responding: > > > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the > suggestions > > > > and > > > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > > > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > > > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as > from > > > > observations of teaching and learning: > > > > > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies > > > that > > > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but > also > > > > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said > > this: > > > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a > > > > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But before > > > they > > > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > > > > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator > between > > > > art > > > > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo > > (Mizasaki) > > > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > > > > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning > to > > > > Draw > > > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > > > > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way > > > they > > > > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > > > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an > > atelierista > > > > in > > > > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time with > > the > > > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the > children > > > > are > > > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them > to > > > > look. > > > > > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the > > > children > > > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from > meaning, > > is > > > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic > representation > > > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The > > teachers > > > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful > > > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how > > to > > > > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a > long > > > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they > > > rode > > > > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you > use? > > > > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with > this > > > > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about > > color > > > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on > the > > > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw. > > In > > > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the > > > > stick > > > > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this > > > moment, > > > > it is wild!) > > > > > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can > make > > a > > > > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with > > > > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, > but > > > the > > > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and > > it > > > > was a lesson about representation. > > > > > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > > > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated > on > > > > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by > > toilet > > > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two > > year > > > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE > > that > > > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > > > > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the > responses > > > > you > > > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > > > > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB > does > > > > not > > > > allow it. > > > > > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > > > > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you > > all > > > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in > > > > relation to this problem! > > > > > > > > Beth and Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > >> Beth, > > > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. > Over > > > >> the > > > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed > > > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a > > time > > > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were > > > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA > had > > to > > > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained > > > >> credibility. > > > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and > > then > > > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida > as > > a > > > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a > > > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the > > > >> towering > > > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the > > > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > > > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object > > substitutions > > > >> at > > > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass > > as > > > >> a > > > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > > > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of > > life, > > > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > > > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of > > the > > > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, > on a > > > >> door > > > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the > > toddler > > > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the > > > >> door? > > > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > > > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures > such > > > >> as > > > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of > > the > > > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, > > > >> naming > > > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From > your > > > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and > > > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading > > the > > > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided > pretend > > > >> play > > > >> that was scaffolded by the adults. > > > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object > substitutions > > > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children > from > > > >> 14 > > > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at > 14 > > > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as > > if > > > >> to > > > >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible > > substance'). > > > >> The > > > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of > > > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) > with > > an > > > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > > > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, > at > > > >> the > > > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon > > > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of > the > > > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not > associated > > > >> with > > > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book > > > >> titled > > > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one > > > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > > > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that > > Bert > > > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship > > between > > > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very > > > >> narrow > > > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. > > > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get > it > > > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of > > > >> Chicago. I > > > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > > > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > >> > > > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this > > > >> chain > > > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at > > > >> work > > > >> > thinking and reading in response! > > > >> > > > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- > > > >> Francine, > > > >> can > > > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of > it > > of > > > >> it, > > > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language > > development, > > > >> and > > > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very > interesting > > > >> talk, > > > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was > inconclusive > > > >> (a > > > >> > 2013 literature review ? ). > > > >> > > > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > > >> > > > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > > > >> suspicious > > > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write > some > > of > > > >> the > > > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > > > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that > > supports > > > >> a > > > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before > > > >> Piaget > > > >> and > > > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass > compared > > > >> to > > > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that > (because > > > >> of > > > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young > > children, > > > >> or > > > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > > >> > > > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of > > showing > > > >> us > > > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. > They > > > >> show > > > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year > > olds > > > >> are > > > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > > > >> > presentations to us : ). > > > >> > > > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of > > grass > > > >> was > > > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw > > inside. > > > >> They > > > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own > > > >> just-two > > > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a > year, > > > >> could > > > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an > > > >> idea > > > >> of > > > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more > > about > > > >> why I > > > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children > in > > > >> my > > > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come > to > > > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew > > really > > > >> well > > > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > > >> > > > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the > > relationship > > > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we > > are > > > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we > > > >> wrote > > > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > > > >> experiment > > > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : > ) > > . > > > >> Of > > > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not > > right? > > > >> So > > > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic > > > >> thought, > > > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > > >> > > > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be > > > >> much > > > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending > > > >> what > > > >> we > > > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are > more > > > >> capable > > > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, > very > > > >> young, > > > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in > > > >> which > > > >> we > > > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the > > > >> competent > > > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after > > our > > > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > > >> > > > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less > > > >> about > > > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their > emphasis > > > >> on > > > >> the > > > >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > > >> > > > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha < > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > >> >wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > >> > > Beth, > > > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > > > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these > > > >> four > > > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of > > > >> Chicago.While > > > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > > > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the > > > >> children to > > > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much > potential > > > >> here > > > >> for > > > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in > learning > > > >> to > > > >> use > > > >> > > symbol systems. > > > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. > > > >> And > > > >> yes, > > > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me > > think > > > >> more > > > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with > are > > > >> posing > > > >> > > to > > > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development > > ... > > > >> I > > > >> think > > > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my > > question, > > > >> above. > > > >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we > need > > > >> to > > > >> ask > > > >> > > why > > > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly > efficient > > at > > > >> what > > > >> > > it > > > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. > Thank > > > >> you! > > > >> > > Beth > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > > > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > >> > > >wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > >> > > > > Beth, > > > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play > > > >> (such > > > >> as > > > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for > > > >> separating > > > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a > > > >> non-replica > > > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using > pictorial > > > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in > > > >> drawings, i. > > > >> > > e., > > > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and > > > >> numerical > > > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that > > > >> documented > > > >> > > this > > > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on > > > >> specific > > > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > > > >> > > 1991documented > > > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend > play > > (a > > > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) > Isn't > > > >> that > > > >> the > > > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for > > > >> another > > > >> > > > > (re-present another)??? > > > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing > that > > > >> play > > > >> > > allows > > > >> > > > > for > > > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an > > idea > > > >> what > > > >> > > this > > > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is > > > >> fine! > > > >> Beth > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, > > > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the > > > >> relationship > > > >> > > between > > > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research > to > > > >> > > > > substantiate? Are > > > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of > > > >> research? > > > >> The > > > >> > > path > > > >> > > > > is > > > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts > > > >> encompassed > > > >> > > > > larger > > > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on > > > >> this > > > >> topic > > > >> > > > > can be > > > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my > > experience > > > >> in > > > >> > > hunting > > > >> > > > > it > > > >> > > > > > > down :) > > > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth > > Ferholt > > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on > > the > > > >> > > > > relationship > > > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being > > challenged > > > >> by > > > >> > > Swedish > > > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows > > > >> Vygotsky was > > > >> > > > > correct > > > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find > any! > > > >> > > > > > > Tanks, > > > >> > > > > > > Beth > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > >> > > > > > > School of Education > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > > > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > >> > > > > > School of Education > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > -- > > > >> > > > Beth Ferholt > > > >> > > > Assistant Professor > > > >> > > > School of Education > > > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -- > > > >> > Beth Ferholt > > > >> > Assistant Professor > > > >> > School of Education > > > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > >> > > > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > School of Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CHEYNE dialogue difference voice.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2735633 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131215/d43a850f/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ferholt and Lecusay, Adult and Child Development in the ZPD, 2009.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 615190 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131215/d43a850f/attachment-0003.pdf From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Dec 16 16:02:43 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:02:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ventriloquation re-ducks Message-ID: Hi All-- I have collected up and tried to systematized an earlier discussion about ventriloquation and what I think we learned from it collectively. I added some words of my own that indicate my thoughts on the matter given the great info you all put before us. It is long, so I have made it an attachment. I would appreciate feedback from those interested, mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ventriloquate.doc Type: application/msword Size: 44544 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131216/b7a9ba7e/attachment.doc From smago@uga.edu Tue Dec 17 03:04:59 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:04:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Great stuff for that CHATty wiki someone was talking about launching. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 7:03 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Ventriloquation re-ducks Hi All-- I have collected up and tried to systematized an earlier discussion about ventriloquation and what I think we learned from it collectively. I added some words of my own that indicate my thoughts on the matter given the great info you all put before us. It is long, so I have made it an attachment. I would appreciate feedback from those interested, mike From smago@uga.edu Tue Dec 17 03:04:59 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:04:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Great stuff for that CHATty wiki someone was talking about launching. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 7:03 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Ventriloquation re-ducks Hi All-- I have collected up and tried to systematized an earlier discussion about ventriloquation and what I think we learned from it collectively. I added some words of my own that indicate my thoughts on the matter given the great info you all put before us. It is long, so I have made it an attachment. I would appreciate feedback from those interested, mike From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 03:55:58 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:55:58 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Integral development of children Message-ID: I searched this , "integral development of children" and what brought to me was some results from Ukraine, Cuba, Bolivia, UNICEF. What is the matter? I think it is a very valuable thought since ancient times on the development of man , then during Renaissance and it should have a central place in 20th century human and child development in particular. Is it thrown away and marginalized from the theory, thoughts and teaching on the development of children, in the developed West? Does not it have a central place on the development of children in US and in Europe today? Was it rather emphasized by socialist circles in the West, in Third World and socialist countries and now marginalized within the mainstream? Thanks Ulvi P.S. By this, I do not mean something like integrated education, maths via music etc. I mean directly integral development of man and the thinking on this in the field of child development. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 04:02:08 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:02:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, The CHAT wiki is a working site. Andy and I have been building up momentum on the implementation, site structure and involvement of contributors. The ventriloquy summary could indeed make a good page supported by other pages explaining the dialogic basis of experience and its relation to activity and the development of mind etc. If you, or anyone else, would like to contribute at this early stage, I can set you up with a login. Best, Huw On 17 December 2013 11:04, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Great stuff for that CHATty wiki someone was talking about launching. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 7:03 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Ventriloquation re-ducks > > Hi All-- > > I have collected up and tried to systematized an earlier discussion about > ventriloquation and what I think we learned from it collectively. I added > some words of my own that indicate my thoughts on the matter given the > great info you all put before us. It is long, so I have made it an > attachment. I would appreciate feedback from those interested, mike > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 04:02:08 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:02:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <2e9aa18124884e1e9a218a1523820560@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, The CHAT wiki is a working site. Andy and I have been building up momentum on the implementation, site structure and involvement of contributors. The ventriloquy summary could indeed make a good page supported by other pages explaining the dialogic basis of experience and its relation to activity and the development of mind etc. If you, or anyone else, would like to contribute at this early stage, I can set you up with a login. Best, Huw On 17 December 2013 11:04, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Great stuff for that CHATty wiki someone was talking about launching. p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 7:03 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Ventriloquation re-ducks > > Hi All-- > > I have collected up and tried to systematized an earlier discussion about > ventriloquation and what I think we learned from it collectively. I added > some words of my own that indicate my thoughts on the matter given the > great info you all put before us. It is long, so I have made it an > attachment. I would appreciate feedback from those interested, mike > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 04:08:54 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:08:54 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Mike. The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes within which the persona and masks are actually expressed. I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking through us given voices which , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. Yes our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and outer voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the discussion of play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within *worlds* emerging in our conversations. I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. Generous and generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth that we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them with our own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are also expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg word makes sense. Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. I wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* speak. This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of socioability. I'll pause Larry From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Dec 17 04:23:34 2013 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:23:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Integral development of children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31105343C@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Hi Ulvi, I suspect that in some contexts 'integral' has been displaced by 'holistic' though this doesn't seem to refer to quite the same intention. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: 17 December 2013 11:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Integral development of children I searched this , "integral development of children" and what brought to me was some results from Ukraine, Cuba, Bolivia, UNICEF. What is the matter? I think it is a very valuable thought since ancient times on the development of man , then during Renaissance and it should have a central place in 20th century human and child development in particular. Is it thrown away and marginalized from the theory, thoughts and teaching on the development of children, in the developed West? Does not it have a central place on the development of children in US and in Europe today? Was it rather emphasized by socialist circles in the West, in Third World and socialist countries and now marginalized within the mainstream? Thanks Ulvi P.S. By this, I do not mean something like integrated education, maths via music etc. I mean directly integral development of man and the thinking on this in the field of child development. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 04:39:34 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:39:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Integral development of children In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31105343C@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31105343C@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks Rod. So, you agree that it was displaced then? Since when and where? :) It seems quite vague where the science ends and ideology begins in today's society and academia, where ideology expulses such valuable, historical and scientific concepts from science...I suspect that in a society where integral development of child and man is a rare occurrence, it is too risky to teach it to new generations. After below email, I looked into Cuban constitution for the term "integral", I met it 5 or six times, all used with respect to human , child and youth development. Best wishes, Ulvi 2013/12/17 Rod Parker-Rees > Hi Ulvi, > > I suspect that in some contexts 'integral' has been displaced by > 'holistic' though this doesn't seem to refer to quite the same intention. > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: 17 December 2013 11:56 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Integral development of children > > I searched this , "integral development of children" and what brought to > me was some results from Ukraine, Cuba, Bolivia, UNICEF. > > What is the matter? I think it is a very valuable thought since ancient > times on the development of man , then during Renaissance and it should > have a central place in 20th century human and child development in > particular. > > Is it thrown away and marginalized from the theory, thoughts and teaching > on the development of children, in the developed West? > > Does not it have a central place on the development of children in US and > in Europe today? Was it rather emphasized by socialist circles in the West, > in Third World and socialist countries and now marginalized within the > mainstream? > > Thanks > > Ulvi > > P.S. By this, I do not mean something like integrated education, maths via > music etc. I mean directly integral development of man and the thinking on > this in the field of child development. > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 10:23:25 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:23:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry-- The etymological research was Eugene, not me. Sorry if my summarizing was inaccurate on who said what. I assume there are a great many varieties and modes of ventriloquation that can be characterized the various terms you propose. In every case under consideration its clearly important to identify the communication in such terms to be relevant...... gotta rise to the concrete, and in doing so, to fill out the concept in as much detail as the conclusions you want to reach seem to require. mike On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Thanks, Mike. > > The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within > puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using > metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] > > I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes within > which the persona and masks are actually expressed. > I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed > within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our > personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking > through us given voices which > , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the > puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? > The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. Yes > our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and outer > voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the discussion of > play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within *worlds* emerging > in our conversations. > > I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous > listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also > participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. Generous and > generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. > > I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth that > we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them with our > own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. > As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are > many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are also > expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg word > makes sense. > > Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. I > wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* speak. > This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as > constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of > socioability. > > I'll pause > Larry > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 12:23:27 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:23:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quick question and assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear XMCA'rs, I'm wondering if anyone can point a colleague to Vygotsky-inspired folks writing on MOOCs. I know there has been a lot of discussion about moocs here on XMCA, but was wondering what's out there in writing. I've forwarded the original message below. Thanks in advance for your suggestions, greg On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Alex Rosborough wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a colleague in general K-12 education that asked me the following > question: > > *Alex: re: vygotsky. can you point me toward a piece (not an overly long > piece) that deals with the centrality of human relationships and mature > support to learning, the sort of piece that leads to the conclusion that > moocs and other forms of on-line ed might be okay for training but not for > education? (i've spent part of the morning trying to find my vygotsky > book--edited by john-steiner, but to no avail, nuts). thanks for your > guidance, Alex. B.* > > And an additional comment: > > *?it's the zone in its various manifestations i'm most interested > in--not just talk about guidance and a bit of coaching but serious > relationship, embedded in meaning tasks that facilitate mentoring and open > folks up to reimagining themselves as capable learners and serious problem > solvers (if this makes any sense at all). * > > Unfortunately, I'm not very up on MOOCs and technology. I know many of > these practices claim to be very Vygotskian but in some cases they're often > superficial interpretations. I think he's alluding (possibly) to the idea > that modern "constructivism" is not necessarily the same as Vygotskian SCT. > > I referred him to Fred Newman's and Lois Holtzman's work(s) concerning > "performance"? And I'm pretty sure you don't typically get the Vygotskian > drama-based / role-playing / language-play performance that is appropriate > and valuable for CHILDREN (K-12 public education system) through many Moocs > and such. > > I know there may be some differing of opinions but do any of you have an > article or suggestion that might help this professor? > > Or are we both out of touch with what he's asking? I'm sure that second > language issues are appropriate to this discussion as well. > > I appreciate any short reply and/or reference you can send. Thank you, > > Alex Rosborough > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Dec 17 14:53:33 2013 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:53:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quick question and assistance In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB111914@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Probably the closest any MOOCs research or theory comes to Vygotskian theory is I think those who are theorizing chaos theory as an explanation for the emergence of organic learning communities. They work out of George Siemens connectivist model and there is no mention of Vygotsky, but I know there have been some ties between chaos theory and Vygotsky. You might look at deWaard, I., Abajian, S., Gallagher, M.S., Hogue, R., Keskin, N., Kotropoulus, A, & Rodriguez, O. (2011). Using mlearning MOOCs to understand chaos, emergence and complexity in education. The International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning, 12, 94-115. http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/view/1046/2043 (last accessed Nov. 1, 2013). As far as Vygotsky people seem to mention him, and or scaffolding, in terms of social engagement which is a big topic in Internet education and I believe applicable to MOOCs. You might look at Rienties, B., Giesbers, B., Tempelaar, D., Lygo-Baker, S., Segers, M., & Gijselaers, W. (2012). The role of scaffolding and motivation in CSCL.Computers & Education, 59(3), 893-906. and two articles recently published in Educational Psychologist, Kreijns, K., Kirschner, P. & Vermeulen, M. (2013). Social Aspects of CSCL Environment: A research framework. Educational Psychologist, 48, 229-242. Fischer, Kollar I, Stegmann, K. Wecker, C. (2013). Toward a script theory of guidance in computer supported collaborative learning. Educational Psychologist, 48. Good luck. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Alex Rosborough Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quick question and assistance Dear XMCA'rs, I'm wondering if anyone can point a colleague to Vygotsky-inspired folks writing on MOOCs. I know there has been a lot of discussion about moocs here on XMCA, but was wondering what's out there in writing. I've forwarded the original message below. Thanks in advance for your suggestions, greg On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Alex Rosborough wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a colleague in general K-12 education that asked me the following > question: > > *Alex: re: vygotsky. can you point me toward a piece (not an overly long > piece) that deals with the centrality of human relationships and mature > support to learning, the sort of piece that leads to the conclusion that > moocs and other forms of on-line ed might be okay for training but not for > education? (i've spent part of the morning trying to find my vygotsky > book--edited by john-steiner, but to no avail, nuts). thanks for your > guidance, Alex. B.* > > And an additional comment: > > *?it's the zone in its various manifestations i'm most interested > in--not just talk about guidance and a bit of coaching but serious > relationship, embedded in meaning tasks that facilitate mentoring and open > folks up to reimagining themselves as capable learners and serious problem > solvers (if this makes any sense at all). * > > Unfortunately, I'm not very up on MOOCs and technology. I know many of > these practices claim to be very Vygotskian but in some cases they're often > superficial interpretations. I think he's alluding (possibly) to the idea > that modern "constructivism" is not necessarily the same as Vygotskian SCT. > > I referred him to Fred Newman's and Lois Holtzman's work(s) concerning > "performance"? And I'm pretty sure you don't typically get the Vygotskian > drama-based / role-playing / language-play performance that is appropriate > and valuable for CHILDREN (K-12 public education system) through many Moocs > and such. > > I know there may be some differing of opinions but do any of you have an > article or suggestion that might help this professor? > > Or are we both out of touch with what he's asking? I'm sure that second > language issues are appropriate to this discussion as well. > > I appreciate any short reply and/or reference you can send. Thank you, > > Alex Rosborough > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From philchappell@mac.com Tue Dec 17 15:55:35 2013 From: philchappell@mac.com (Phil Chappell) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:55:35 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quick question and assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78B85767-E6CF-4EC6-99CF-4D4E4418FBDA@mac.com> Not directly referencing MOOCs, but this new volume of papers may be of interest. Meskill, C, 2013, Online Teaching and Learning, Sociocultural Perspectives, London: Bloomsbury http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/online-teaching-and-learning-9781441159458 Phil On 18 Dec 2013, at 7:23 am, Greg Thompson wrote: > Dear XMCA'rs, > I'm wondering if anyone can point a colleague to Vygotsky-inspired folks > writing on MOOCs. I know there has been a lot of discussion about moocs > here on XMCA, but was wondering what's out there in writing. > I've forwarded the original message below. > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions, > greg > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Alex Rosborough wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have a colleague in general K-12 education that asked me the following >> question: >> >> *Alex: re: vygotsky. can you point me toward a piece (not an overly long >> piece) that deals with the centrality of human relationships and mature >> support to learning, the sort of piece that leads to the conclusion that >> moocs and other forms of on-line ed might be okay for training but not for >> education? (i've spent part of the morning trying to find my vygotsky >> book--edited by john-steiner, but to no avail, nuts). thanks for your >> guidance, Alex. B.* >> >> And an additional comment: >> >> *?it's the zone in its various manifestations i'm most interested >> in--not just talk about guidance and a bit of coaching but serious >> relationship, embedded in meaning tasks that facilitate mentoring and open >> folks up to reimagining themselves as capable learners and serious problem >> solvers (if this makes any sense at all). * >> >> Unfortunately, I'm not very up on MOOCs and technology. I know many of >> these practices claim to be very Vygotskian but in some cases they're often >> superficial interpretations. I think he's alluding (possibly) to the idea >> that modern "constructivism" is not necessarily the same as Vygotskian SCT. >> >> I referred him to Fred Newman's and Lois Holtzman's work(s) concerning >> "performance"? And I'm pretty sure you don't typically get the Vygotskian >> drama-based / role-playing / language-play performance that is appropriate >> and valuable for CHILDREN (K-12 public education system) through many Moocs >> and such. >> >> I know there may be some differing of opinions but do any of you have an >> article or suggestion that might help this professor? >> >> Or are we both out of touch with what he's asking? I'm sure that second >> language issues are appropriate to this discussion as well. >> >> I appreciate any short reply and/or reference you can send. Thank you, >> >> Alex Rosborough >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From deanyalattimore@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 19:35:34 2013 From: deanyalattimore@gmail.com (Deanya Lattimore) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:35:34 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Quick question and assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So a search on http://scholar.google.com gives me these plus more. I can poke around a couple of real academic databases tomorrow. - Deanya (more contact info in sig line) Bell, Frances. "Connectivism: Its place in theory-informed research and innovation in technology-enabled learning." *The International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning* 12.3 (2010): 98-118. http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/view/902/1664 Berardi, Victor, and Greg Blundell. "A Learning Theory Approach to Using Capture Technology in Teaching: Ideas from Basic Lecture Capture to Student-Created Content." *Proceedings of the Information Systems Educators Conference ISSN*. Vol. 2167. 2013. http://proc.isecon.org/2013/pdf/2561.pdf Clar?, Marc, and Elena Barber?. "Learning online: massive open online courses (MOOCs), connectivism, and cultural psychology." *Distance Education* 34.1 (2013): 129-136. Clar?, M., and E. Barber?. "Three problems with the connectivist conception of learning." *Journal of Computer Assisted Learning* (2013). de Waard, Inge, et al. "Exploring the MOOC format as a pedagogical approach for mLearning." *Proceedings from mLearn* (2011). http://mlearn.bnu.edu.cn/source/ten_outstanding_papers/Exploring%20the%20MOOC%20format%20as%20a%20pedagogical%20approach%20for%20mLearning.pdf De Waard, Inge. "Investigating Learner Interactions via Ubiquitous Access." *mLearn*. 2012. http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-955/papers/paper_78.pdf de Waard, Inge, et al. "Using mLearning and MOOCs to understand chaos, emergence, and complexity in education." *The International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning* 12.7 (2011): 94-115. http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/view/1046/2026?mid=53 Ermalai, Iasmina Leila. "IT Gaining Ground in Learning." *Advanced Engineering Forum*. Vol. 8. 2013. O'Toole, Robert. "Pedagogical strategies and technologies for peer assessment in Massively Open Online Courses (MOOCs)." (2013). http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/54602/7/WRAP_O'toole_ROToole%20Peer%20Assessment%20in%20MOOCs%20(1).pdf Reilly, Christiane. "MOOCs Deconstructed: Variables that Affect MOOC Success Rates." *World Conference on E-Learning in Corporate, Government, Healthcare, and Higher Education*. Vol. 2013. No. 1. 2013. http://www.editlib.org/p/115062/proceeding_115062.pdf Waite, Marion, et al. "Liminal Participants and Skilled Orienteers: Learner Participation in a MOOC for New Lecturers." *Journal of Online Learning & Teaching* 9.2 (2013). http://jolt.merlot.org/vol9no2/waite_0613.htm On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Dear XMCA'rs, > I'm wondering if anyone can point a colleague to Vygotsky-inspired folks > writing on MOOCs. I know there has been a lot of discussion about moocs > here on XMCA, but was wondering what's out there in writing. > I've forwarded the original message below. > > Thanks in advance for your suggestions, > greg > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Alex Rosborough >wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a colleague in general K-12 education that asked me the following > > question: > > > > *Alex: re: vygotsky. can you point me toward a piece (not an overly long > > piece) that deals with the centrality of human relationships and mature > > support to learning, the sort of piece that leads to the conclusion that > > moocs and other forms of on-line ed might be okay for training but not > for > > education? (i've spent part of the morning trying to find my vygotsky > > book--edited by john-steiner, but to no avail, nuts). thanks for your > > guidance, Alex. B.* > > > > And an additional comment: > > > > *?it's the zone in its various manifestations i'm most interested > > in--not just talk about guidance and a bit of coaching but serious > > relationship, embedded in meaning tasks that facilitate mentoring and > open > > folks up to reimagining themselves as capable learners and serious > problem > > solvers (if this makes any sense at all). * > > > > Unfortunately, I'm not very up on MOOCs and technology. I know many of > > these practices claim to be very Vygotskian but in some cases they're > often > > superficial interpretations. I think he's alluding (possibly) to the idea > > that modern "constructivism" is not necessarily the same as Vygotskian > SCT. > > > > I referred him to Fred Newman's and Lois Holtzman's work(s) concerning > > "performance"? And I'm pretty sure you don't typically get the Vygotskian > > drama-based / role-playing / language-play performance that is > appropriate > > and valuable for CHILDREN (K-12 public education system) through many > Moocs > > and such. > > > > I know there may be some differing of opinions but do any of you have an > > article or suggestion that might help this professor? > > > > Or are we both out of touch with what he's asking? I'm sure that second > > language issues are appropriate to this discussion as well. > > > > I appreciate any short reply and/or reference you can send. Thank you, > > > > Alex Rosborough > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Deanya Lattimore http://www.deanya.com 573-326-9257 Google Voice; leave a message Diigo: http://www.diigo.com/profile/deanya Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/deanya.lattimore Google Chat: deanyalattimore@gmail.com Second Life: Deanya Zenfold Twitter: http://twitter.com/deanya From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Dec 17 23:42:30 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:42:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Moving to the concrete, recently I have been tracing the shifting relations of the contrasting genres of muthos [myth] and logos [rationality] and the polyphonic ways these genres have played out as particular understandings. However, what is fascinating is the way these genres interweave throughout different epochs and either muthos or logos can be in the ascending position. To give one example, Hayden White explores the shifting understandings of the relation of *the social* with *the cultural* as differing ways of orienting to logos. Hayden wrote; "In many respects both Marxist and Western academic social science regarded a pre - or unscientific human consciousness as the principal cause of the problems that a genuinely scientific study of society and its processes would ultimately solve. Much like the Freud of *Civilization and its Discontents*, Marxist and Western academic social science agreed that a *civilization* undomesticated and undisciplined by scientific knowledge of human nature, society, and culture was the cause of the peculiar *discontents* of a specifically *modern* society. From this ASSUMPTION arose the desire informing both of these social sciences to *reduce* culture to the status of an epiphenomenon of processes - specifically social processes - which because they were intrinsically grounded in humanity's relations with the material world and inherently utilitarian or aim-oriented in their motivation, could be construed AS RATIONAL.in their articulation and therefore submissible to the ministrations of scientifically DERIVED twchniques of manipulation, education, and disciplination in a way that culture, conceived as *play*, *values*, *superstition*, *art*, *religion* and the like, was not." [in "Beyond the Cultural Turn", 1999, where Hayden White wrote the afterword to this edited text] This is one fragment, and he goes on to also articulate the shift towards the mythic voice in the ascendence. The multivoiced theme is left ambiguous and there is always *excess* beyond either muthos or logos. It is the *ambiguity* and *ambivalence* that seems central. Mike, as I *read* Hayden above, I experience a type of ventriloquation of the interweaving of muthos and logos though historical epochs. In the above quote, Hayden is expressing a genre which expresses logos in the ascendence and muthos is in a supporting role. However, logos does not have the last word and other voices enter and exit center stage. As I *read* narratives which trace the emergence of different *genres* [concepts] it seems that the concept of *venting* may be appropriate as a way of expressing the interweaving voices across the ages that we hear in our current reflections. The multivoiced expressions of our internal and external *talk* seems to reverberate across multiple time scales. However in each *turn* also is a *return* and this also can be traced through human *development. Larry On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mike cole wrote: > Larry-- The etymological research was Eugene, not me. Sorry if my > summarizing was inaccurate on who said what. > > I assume there are a great many varieties and modes of ventriloquation > that can be characterized the various terms you propose. In every case > under consideration its clearly important to identify the communication in > such terms to be relevant...... gotta rise to the concrete, and in doing > so, to fill out the concept in as much detail as the conclusions you want > to reach seem to require. > mike > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Thanks, Mike. >> >> The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within >> puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using >> metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] >> >> I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes within >> which the persona and masks are actually expressed. >> I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed >> within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our >> personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking >> through us given voices which >> , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the >> puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? >> The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. >> Yes our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and >> outer voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the >> discussion of play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within >> *worlds* emerging in our conversations. >> >> I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous >> listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also >> participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. Generous and >> generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. >> >> I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth that >> we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them with our >> own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. >> As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are >> many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are also >> expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg word >> makes sense. >> >> Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. I >> wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* speak. >> This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as >> constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of >> socioability. >> >> I'll pause >> Larry >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Dec 19 14:26:40 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:26:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Larry-- Shifting relations between logos and mythos is rising to the concrete for you!? Far out!! For me a concrete case would be the way that adults seek to get kids to take on more logos by embedding "logistic" moments in computer games that are organized around myths that enable kids to make sense of the logocentric tradition as means for dealing with (always partially mythic!) world. Teaching everyone to how to open zones of care seems like a really interesting way to think about development..... until the orcs appear. Come ot think of it, a computer game of hobbits and orcs that taught the calculus as a side product would make a great xmas present for the learning sciences! :-) mike On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > Moving to the concrete, recently I have been tracing the shifting > relations of the contrasting genres of muthos [myth] and > logos [rationality] and the polyphonic ways these genres have played out as > particular understandings. However, what is fascinating is the way these > genres interweave throughout different epochs and either muthos or logos > can be in the ascending position. > To give one example, Hayden White explores the shifting understandings of > the relation of *the social* with *the cultural* as differing ways of > orienting to logos. Hayden wrote; > > "In many respects both Marxist and Western academic social science > regarded a pre - or unscientific human consciousness as the principal cause > of the problems that a genuinely scientific study of society and its > processes would ultimately solve. Much like the Freud of *Civilization and > its Discontents*, Marxist and Western academic social science agreed that a > *civilization* undomesticated and undisciplined by scientific knowledge of > human nature, society, and culture was the cause of the peculiar > *discontents* of a specifically *modern* society. From this ASSUMPTION > arose the desire informing both of these social sciences to *reduce* > culture to the status of an epiphenomenon of processes - specifically > social processes - which because they were intrinsically grounded in > humanity's relations with the material world and inherently utilitarian or > aim-oriented in their motivation, could be construed AS RATIONAL.in their > articulation and therefore submissible to the ministrations of > scientifically DERIVED twchniques of manipulation, education, and > disciplination in a way that culture, conceived as *play*, *values*, > *superstition*, *art*, *religion* and the like, was not." [in "Beyond the > Cultural Turn", 1999, where Hayden White wrote the afterword to this > edited text] > > This is one fragment, and he goes on to also articulate the shift towards > the mythic voice in the ascendence. The multivoiced theme is left ambiguous > and there is always *excess* beyond either muthos or logos. It is the > *ambiguity* and *ambivalence* that seems central. > > Mike, as I *read* Hayden above, I experience a type of ventriloquation of > the interweaving of muthos and logos though historical epochs. In the > above quote, Hayden is expressing a genre which expresses logos in the > ascendence and muthos is in a supporting role. > However, logos does not have the last word and other voices enter and > exit center stage. As I *read* narratives which trace the emergence of > different *genres* [concepts] it seems that the concept of *venting* may be > appropriate as a way of expressing the interweaving voices across the ages > that we hear in our current reflections. The multivoiced expressions of our > internal and external *talk* seems to reverberate across multiple time > scales. However in each *turn* also is a *return* and this also can be > traced through human *development. > > Larry > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Larry-- The etymological research was Eugene, not me. Sorry if my >> summarizing was inaccurate on who said what. >> >> I assume there are a great many varieties and modes of ventriloquation >> that can be characterized the various terms you propose. In every case >> under consideration its clearly important to identify the communication in >> such terms to be relevant...... gotta rise to the concrete, and in doing >> so, to fill out the concept in as much detail as the conclusions you want >> to reach seem to require. >> mike >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Mike. >>> >>> The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within >>> puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using >>> metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] >>> >>> I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes within >>> which the persona and masks are actually expressed. >>> I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed >>> within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our >>> personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking >>> through us given voices which >>> , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the >>> puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? >>> The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. >>> Yes our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and >>> outer voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the >>> discussion of play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within >>> *worlds* emerging in our conversations. >>> >>> I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous >>> listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also >>> participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. Generous and >>> generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. >>> >>> I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth >>> that we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them with >>> our own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. >>> As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are >>> many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are also >>> expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg word >>> makes sense. >>> >>> Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. >>> I wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* speak. >>> This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as >>> constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of >>> socioability. >>> >>> I'll pause >>> Larry >>> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Dec 19 15:23:24 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:23:24 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52B37FEC.2050806@mira.net> I presume Larry is alluding to "mythos" in the Aristotlean sense which we nowadays call "narrative" and "logos" in the sense we now call "conceptual". So I took Larry's comment as related to connections between the narrative and conceptual knowledge, which can make claim to be moving to the concrete in the same sense that ideographic relates to nomothetic science. Is that the same as Aritotlean vs Galilean? I'm not sure. Did I get that right, Larry? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Hi Larry-- Shifting relations between logos and mythos is rising to the > concrete for you!? Far out!! > > > For me a concrete case would be the way that adults seek to get kids to > take on more logos by embedding > "logistic" moments in computer games that are organized around myths that > enable kids to make sense of the > logocentric tradition as means for dealing with (always partially mythic!) > world. Teaching everyone to how to open zones of care seems like a really > interesting way to think about development..... until the orcs appear. > > Come ot think of it, a computer game of hobbits and orcs that taught the > calculus as a side product would make a great xmas present for the learning > sciences! > :-) > mike > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > >> Mike, >> Moving to the concrete, recently I have been tracing the shifting >> relations of the contrasting genres of muthos [myth] and >> logos [rationality] and the polyphonic ways these genres have played out as >> particular understandings. However, what is fascinating is the way these >> genres interweave throughout different epochs and either muthos or logos >> can be in the ascending position. >> To give one example, Hayden White explores the shifting understandings of >> the relation of *the social* with *the cultural* as differing ways of >> orienting to logos. Hayden wrote; >> >> "In many respects both Marxist and Western academic social science >> regarded a pre - or unscientific human consciousness as the principal cause >> of the problems that a genuinely scientific study of society and its >> processes would ultimately solve. Much like the Freud of *Civilization and >> its Discontents*, Marxist and Western academic social science agreed that a >> *civilization* undomesticated and undisciplined by scientific knowledge of >> human nature, society, and culture was the cause of the peculiar >> *discontents* of a specifically *modern* society. From this ASSUMPTION >> arose the desire informing both of these social sciences to *reduce* >> culture to the status of an epiphenomenon of processes - specifically >> social processes - which because they were intrinsically grounded in >> humanity's relations with the material world and inherently utilitarian or >> aim-oriented in their motivation, could be construed AS RATIONAL.in their >> articulation and therefore submissible to the ministrations of >> scientifically DERIVED twchniques of manipulation, education, and >> disciplination in a way that culture, conceived as *play*, *values*, >> *superstition*, *art*, *religion* and the like, was not." [in "Beyond the >> Cultural Turn", 1999, where Hayden White wrote the afterword to this >> edited text] >> >> This is one fragment, and he goes on to also articulate the shift towards >> the mythic voice in the ascendence. The multivoiced theme is left ambiguous >> and there is always *excess* beyond either muthos or logos. It is the >> *ambiguity* and *ambivalence* that seems central. >> >> Mike, as I *read* Hayden above, I experience a type of ventriloquation of >> the interweaving of muthos and logos though historical epochs. In the >> above quote, Hayden is expressing a genre which expresses logos in the >> ascendence and muthos is in a supporting role. >> However, logos does not have the last word and other voices enter and >> exit center stage. As I *read* narratives which trace the emergence of >> different *genres* [concepts] it seems that the concept of *venting* may be >> appropriate as a way of expressing the interweaving voices across the ages >> that we hear in our current reflections. The multivoiced expressions of our >> internal and external *talk* seems to reverberate across multiple time >> scales. However in each *turn* also is a *return* and this also can be >> traced through human *development. >> >> Larry >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> Larry-- The etymological research was Eugene, not me. Sorry if my >>> summarizing was inaccurate on who said what. >>> >>> I assume there are a great many varieties and modes of ventriloquation >>> that can be characterized the various terms you propose. In every case >>> under consideration its clearly important to identify the communication in >>> such terms to be relevant...... gotta rise to the concrete, and in doing >>> so, to fill out the concept in as much detail as the conclusions you want >>> to reach seem to require. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Thanks, Mike. >>>> >>>> The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within >>>> puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using >>>> metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] >>>> >>>> I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes within >>>> which the persona and masks are actually expressed. >>>> I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed >>>> within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our >>>> personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking >>>> through us given voices which >>>> , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the >>>> puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? >>>> The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. >>>> Yes our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and >>>> outer voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the >>>> discussion of play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within >>>> *worlds* emerging in our conversations. >>>> >>>> I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous >>>> listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also >>>> participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. Generous and >>>> generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. >>>> >>>> I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth >>>> that we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them with >>>> our own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. >>>> As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are >>>> many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are also >>>> expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg word >>>> makes sense. >>>> >>>> Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. >>>> I wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* speak. >>>> This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as >>>> constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of >>>> socioability. >>>> >>>> I'll pause >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Dec 20 08:40:26 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 08:40:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: Beth-- I look forward to seeing a careful report of the practices that you are describing. It remains difficult to imagine a one year old whose language production skills we are used to think of as limited engaging in the kinds of interactions you describe. Are you planning to replicate this kind of pedagogical practice in Brooklyn? mike On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Thank you for this comment, Larry -- here is the Tarulli, and the one you > mention with Robert Lecusay -- Beth > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > I am remembering the discussion of playworlds and the zo-ped as helping > the > > adults *grow up* within socratic dialogues with children. > > An article was referenced which I am would like to read that was > referenced > > in the article: > > > > Cheyne, J. A and Tarulli, D (1999) Dialogue ,difference, and voice in the > > zone of proximal development. Theory and Psychology, 9, 5-28. > > > > If it is possible to send a cop.y I would appreciate this.. > > > > The exploration of desire and motivation and the adult being transformed > > [and developing] within the intersubjective engagement [and enactment] in > > the zo-ped is what I find fascinating. This depth of *care and concern* > for > > the child's *voice* moving from the magisterial TO the socratic voice > seems > > a radical [going to the root] of the zo-ped. > > Thanks, > > Larry > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Beth Ferholt > wrote: > > > > > This is very very helpful, Artin. Monica and I are both about to fly > to > > > the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss > and > > > respond in a couple weeks. Thank you! Beth > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Beth and Monica-- > > > > > > > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I > > don't > > > > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is > > redundant > > > > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. > > > > > > > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to > development > > of > > > > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the > > > > motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like Freud, > > > > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of > an > > > > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to > > > > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to > > > anticipate > > > > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) > I > > > > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young > > children > > > > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with > > children > > > > who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about > these > > > > issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of > > play > > > > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this > > idea > > > > too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the > connection > > > > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be > > > > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal > > > > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In > the > > > > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued > and > > > > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar > > > > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an > > infant's > > > > pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this > > > > de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets > > > > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and > > > > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In > > other > > > > words, something can be represented either through a very structured > > toy > > > > or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking > > place > > > > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to > > > symbolic > > > > development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how > > > > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from > > tree > > > > figures to geometric shapes...) > > > > > > > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and > > symbolic > > > > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection > > between > > > > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there > is > > a > > > > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get > > > > represented in play. > > > > > > > > All the best, ag > > > > > > > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > > > We apologize for the delay responding: > > > > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the > > suggestions > > > > > and > > > > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ... > > > > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from > > > > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as > > from > > > > > observations of teaching and learning: > > > > > > > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some > dichotomies > > > > that > > > > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but > > also > > > > > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who said > > > this: > > > > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us > try a > > > > > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But > before > > > > they > > > > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > > > > > > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator > > between > > > > > art > > > > > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo > > > (Mizasaki) > > > > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this > > > > > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning > > to > > > > > Draw > > > > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > > > > > > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the > way > > > > they > > > > > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their art > > > > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an > > > atelierista > > > > > in > > > > > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time > with > > > the > > > > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the > > children > > > > > are > > > > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping > them > > to > > > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the > > > > children > > > > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from > > meaning, > > > is > > > > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic > > representation > > > > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The > > > teachers > > > > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is > careful > > > > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about > how > > > to > > > > > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have a > > long > > > > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that > they > > > > rode > > > > > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you > > use? > > > > > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with > > this > > > > > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about > > > color > > > > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is on > > the > > > > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to > draw. > > > In > > > > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that > the > > > > > stick > > > > > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at this > > > > moment, > > > > > it is wild!) > > > > > > > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can > > make > > > a > > > > > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar > with > > > > > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it was, > > but > > > > the > > > > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, > and > > > it > > > > > was a lesson about representation. > > > > > > > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > > > > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos > laminated > > on > > > > > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by > > > toilet > > > > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the two > > > year > > > > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE > > > that > > > > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > > > > > > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the > > responses > > > > > you > > > > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > > > > > > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB > > does > > > > > not > > > > > allow it. > > > > > > > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between > you > > > all > > > > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development > in > > > > > relation to this problem! > > > > > > > > > > Beth and Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > > >> Beth, > > > > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. > > Over > > > > >> the > > > > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed > > > > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a > > > time > > > > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees > were > > > > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA > > had > > > to > > > > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained > > > > >> credibility. > > > > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and > > > then > > > > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida > > as > > > a > > > > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a > > > > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the > > > > >> towering > > > > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of > the > > > > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > > > > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object > > > substitutions > > > > >> at > > > > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of > grass > > > as > > > > >> a > > > > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > > > > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of > > > life, > > > > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > > > > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use > of > > > the > > > > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, > > on a > > > > >> door > > > > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the > > > toddler > > > > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking > the > > > > >> door? > > > > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > > > > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures > > such > > > > >> as > > > > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle > of > > > the > > > > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' > function.Certainly, > > > > >> naming > > > > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From > > your > > > > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and > > > > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were > leading > > > the > > > > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided > > pretend > > > > >> play > > > > >> that was scaffolded by the adults. > > > > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object > > substitutions > > > > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children > > from > > > > >> 14 > > > > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at > > 14 > > > > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips > as > > > if > > > > >> to > > > > >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible > > > substance'). > > > > >> The > > > > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition > of > > > > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) > > with > > > an > > > > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > > > > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, > > at > > > > >> the > > > > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and > soon > > > > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of > > the > > > > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not > > associated > > > > >> with > > > > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book > > > > >> titled > > > > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age > one > > > > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > > > > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that > > > Bert > > > > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship > > > between > > > > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very > > > > >> narrow > > > > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. > > > > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get > > it > > > > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of > > > > >> Chicago. I > > > > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > > > > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in > this > > > > >> chain > > > > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard > at > > > > >> work > > > > >> > thinking and reading in response! > > > > >> > > > > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- > > > > >> Francine, > > > > >> can > > > > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of > > it > > > of > > > > >> it, > > > > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language > > > development, > > > > >> and > > > > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very > > interesting > > > > >> talk, > > > > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was > > inconclusive > > > > >> (a > > > > >> > 2013 literature review ? ). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following > dilemma: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > > > > >> suspicious > > > > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write > > some > > > of > > > > >> the > > > > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > > > > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that > > > supports > > > > >> a > > > > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before > > > > >> Piaget > > > > >> and > > > > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass > > compared > > > > >> to > > > > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that > > (because > > > > >> of > > > > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young > > > children, > > > > >> or > > > > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of > > > showing > > > > >> us > > > > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. > > They > > > > >> show > > > > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one > year > > > olds > > > > >> are > > > > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give > hour-long > > > > >> > presentations to us : ). > > > > >> > > > > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of > > > grass > > > > >> was > > > > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw > > > inside. > > > > >> They > > > > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my > own > > > > >> just-two > > > > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a > > year, > > > > >> could > > > > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have > an > > > > >> idea > > > > >> of > > > > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more > > > about > > > > >> why I > > > > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many > children > > in > > > > >> my > > > > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come > > to > > > > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew > > > really > > > > >> well > > > > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the > > > relationship > > > > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what > we > > > are > > > > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when > we > > > > >> wrote > > > > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > > > > >> experiment > > > > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop > : > > ) > > > . > > > > >> Of > > > > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not > > > right? > > > > >> So > > > > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic > > > > >> thought, > > > > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would > be > > > > >> much > > > > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without > defending > > > > >> what > > > > >> we > > > > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are > > more > > > > >> capable > > > > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, > > very > > > > >> young, > > > > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts > (in > > > > >> which > > > > >> we > > > > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the > > > > >> competent > > > > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about > after > > > our > > > > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be > less > > > > >> about > > > > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their > > emphasis > > > > >> on > > > > >> the > > > > >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha < > > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > > >> >wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > >> > > Beth, > > > > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > > > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > > > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > > > > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans > these > > > > >> four > > > > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of > > > > >> Chicago.While > > > > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all > four > > > > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach > the > > > > >> children to > > > > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much > > potential > > > > >> here > > > > >> for > > > > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in > > learning > > > > >> to > > > > >> use > > > > >> > > symbol systems. > > > > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > > > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is > helpful. > > > > >> And > > > > >> yes, > > > > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me > > > think > > > > >> more > > > > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with > > are > > > > >> posing > > > > >> > > to > > > > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child > development > > > ... > > > > >> I > > > > >> think > > > > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my > > > question, > > > > >> above. > > > > >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we > > need > > > > >> to > > > > >> ask > > > > >> > > why > > > > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly > > efficient > > > at > > > > >> what > > > > >> > > it > > > > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. > > Thank > > > > >> you! > > > > >> > > Beth > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > > > > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > > >> > > >wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > >> > > > > Beth, > > > > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend > play > > > > >> (such > > > > >> as > > > > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot > for > > > > >> separating > > > > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with > a > > > > >> non-replica > > > > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using > > pictorial > > > > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in > > > > >> drawings, i. > > > > >> > > e., > > > > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and > > > > >> numerical > > > > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study > that > > > > >> documented > > > > >> > > this > > > > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused > on > > > > >> specific > > > > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > > > > >> > > 1991documented > > > > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend > > play > > > (a > > > > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) > > Isn't > > > > >> that > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand > for > > > > >> another > > > > >> > > > > (re-present another)??? > > > > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing > > that > > > > >> play > > > > >> > > allows > > > > >> > > > > for > > > > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have > an > > > idea > > > > >> what > > > > >> > > this > > > > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done > is > > > > >> fine! > > > > >> Beth > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, > > > > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the > > > > >> relationship > > > > >> > > between > > > > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research > > to > > > > >> > > > > substantiate? Are > > > > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of > > > > >> research? > > > > >> The > > > > >> > > path > > > > >> > > > > is > > > > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts > > > > >> encompassed > > > > >> > > > > larger > > > > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research > on > > > > >> this > > > > >> topic > > > > >> > > > > can be > > > > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my > > > experience > > > > >> in > > > > >> > > hunting > > > > >> > > > > it > > > > >> > > > > > > down :) > > > > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth > > > Ferholt > > > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work > on > > > the > > > > >> > > > > relationship > > > > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being > > > challenged > > > > >> by > > > > >> > > Swedish > > > > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows > > > > >> Vygotsky was > > > > >> > > > > correct > > > > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find > > any! > > > > >> > > > > > > Tanks, > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > >> > > > > > > School of Education > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > > > > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > >> > > > > > School of Education > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > -- > > > > >> > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > >> > > > Assistant Professor > > > > >> > > > School of Education > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -- > > > > >> > Beth Ferholt > > > > >> > Assistant Professor > > > > >> > School of Education > > > > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > School of Education > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Assistant Professor > > > School of Education > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Dec 20 17:53:54 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 01:53:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: fyi In-Reply-To: References: <0323E35A1923E047833F96F89422FFC157BDCC34@phoebe.manchester.edu> <5F38F650-2CD2-4C16-A527-9049C5E7C3C8@manchester.edu> Message-ID: <560942B3-8415-4782-8F60-EBC9399D7D29@uniandes.edu.co> Science has an article on MOOCs written by people from the Open University. Interesting suggestions... Martin Science 20 December 2013: Vol. 342 no. 6165 pp. 1450-1451 DOI: 10.1126/science.1239686 ? EDUCATION FORUM EDUCATION Open Learning at a Distance: Lessons for Struggling MOOCs ? Patrick McAndrew*, ? Eileen Scanlon +Author Affiliations ? Institute of Educational Technology, The Open University, Milton Keynes MK7 6AA, UK. ? ?*Corresponding author. patrick.mcandrew@open.ac.uk Free education is changing how people think about learning online. The rise of Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) (1) shows that large numbers of learners can be reached. It also raises questions as to how effectively they support learning (2). There is a timeliness in the introduction of MOOCs, reflecting the right combination of online systems, interest from good teachers in reaching more learners, and banks of digital resources, predicted as a ?perfect storm of innovation? (3). However, learning at scale, at a distance, is not a new phenomenon. Seeing MOOCs narrowly as a technology that expands access to in-classroom teaching can miss opportunities. Drawing on decades of lessons learned, we set out aims to help spur innovation in science education. On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:41 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > More on moocs. > Anyone want to wager how much longer the MOOC supporter's commitment to the > disadvantaged and the third world will hold out? > And are there reasons why moocs might better serve those who are privileged > and advantaged? > Thrun at least sounds committed, but will that matter in the long run? > -greg > > > ------------------------------ > > December 10, 2013 > > *After Setbacks, Online Courses Are Rethought* > > *By TAMAR LEWIN > * > > Two years after a Stanford professor drew 160,000 students from around the > globe to a free online course on artificial intelligence, starting what was > widely viewed as a revolution in higher education, early results for such > large-scale courses are disappointing, forcing a rethinking of how college > instruction can best use the Internet. > > A study of a million users of massive open online courses, known as MOOCs, > releasedthis > month by the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education > found that, on average, only about half of those who registered for a > course ever viewed a lecture, and only about 4 percent completed the > courses. > > Much of the hope ? and hype ? surrounding MOOCs has focused on the promise > of courses for students in poor countries with little access to higher > education. But a separate survey from the University of Pennsylvania > released last month found that about 80 percent of those taking the > university?s MOOCs had already earned a > degreeof > some kind. > > And perhaps the most publicized MOOC > experiment, > at San Jose State University, has turned into a flop. It was a partnership > announced with great fanfare at a January news conference featuring Gov. > Jerry Brown of California, a strong backer of online education. San Jose > State and Udacity , a Silicon Valley company > co-founded by a Stanford artificial-intelligence professor, Sebastian > Thrun, would work together to offer three low-cost online introductory > courses for college credit. > > Mr. Thrun, who had been unhappy with the low completion rates in free > MOOCs, hoped to increase them by hiring online mentors to help students > stick with the classes. And the university, in the heart of Silicon Valley, > hoped to show its leadership in online learning, and to reach more > students. > > But the pilot classes, of about 100 people each, failed. Despite access to > the Udacity mentors, the online students last spring ? including many from > a charter high school in Oakland ? did > worsethan > those who took the classes on campus. In the algebra class, fewer than > a quarter of the students ? and only 12 percent of the high school students > ? earned a passing grade. > > The program was suspended in July, and it is unclear when, if or how the > program will resume. Neither the provost nor the president of San Jose > State returned calls, and spokesmen said the university had no comment. > > Whatever happens at San Jose, even the loudest critics of MOOCs do not > expect them to fade away. More likely, they will morph into many different > shapes: Already, San Jose State is getting good results using videos from > edX , a nonprofit MOOC venture, to supplement some > classroom sessions, and edX is producing videos to use in some high school > Advanced Placement classes. And Coursera , the > largest MOOC company, is experimenting with using its courses, along with a > facilitator, in small discussion classes at some United States consulates. > > Some MOOC pioneers are working with a different model, so-called > connectivist MOOCs, which are more about the connections and communication > among students than about the content delivered by a professor. > > ?It?s like, ?The MOOC is dead, long live the MOOC,? ? said Jonathan Rees, a > Colorado State University-Pueblo professor who has expressed fears that the > online courses would displace professors and be an excuse for cuts in > funding. ?At the beginning everybody talked about MOOCs being entirely > online, but now we?re seeing lots of things that fall in the middle, and > even I see the appeal of that.? > > The intense publicity about MOOCs has nudged almost every university toward > developing an Internet strategy. > > Given that the wave of publicity about MOOCs began with Mr. Thrun?s > artificial-intelligence course, it is fitting that he has become emblematic > of a reset in the thinking about MOOCs, after a profile in Fast Company > magazinethat > described him as moving away from college classes in favor of > vocational training in partnerships with corporations that would pay a fee. > > Many educators saw the move as an admission of defeat for the idea that > online courses would democratize higher education ? and confirmation that, > at its core, Udacity, a company funded with venture capital, was more > interested in profits than in helping to educate underserved students. > > ?Sebastian Thrun put himself out there as a little bit of a lightning rod,? > said George Siemens, a MOOC pioneer who got funding from the Bill & Melinda > Gates Foundation for research on MOOCs, and last week convened the > researchers at the University of Texas at Arlington to discuss their early > results. ?Whether he intended it or not, that article marks a substantial > turning point in the conversation around MOOCs.? > > The profile quoted Mr. Thrun as saying the Udacity MOOCs were ?a lousy > product? and ?not a good fit? for disadvantaged students, unleashing a > torrent of commentary in the higher-education blogosphere. > > Mr. Thrun took issue with the article, and said he had never concluded that > MOOCs could not work for any particular group of students. > > ?I care about education for everyone, not just the elite,? he said in an > interview. ?We want to bring high-quality education to everyone, and set up > everyone for success. My commitment is unchanged.? > > While he said he was ?super-excited? about working with corporations to > improve job skills, Mr. Thrun said he was working with San Jose State to > revamp the software so that future students could have more time to work > through the courses. > > ?To all those people who declared our experiment a failure, you have to > understand how innovation works,? he wrote on his > blog. > ?Few ideas work on the first try. Iteration is key to innovation. We are > seeing significant improvement in learning outcomes and student engagement. > ? > > Some draw an analogy to mobile phones, which took several generations to > progress from clunky and unreliable to indispensable. > > Mr. Thrun stressed that results from the second round of the San Jose > experiment over the summer were much improved, with the online algebra and > statistics students doing better than their on-campus counterparts. > Comparisons are murky, though, since the summer classes were open to all, > and half the students already had degrees. > > Some San Jose professors said they found the MOOC material useful and were > disappointed that the pilot was halted. > > ?We had great results in the summer, so I?m surprised that it?s not going > forward,? said Julie Sliva, who taught the college algebra course. ?I?m > still using the Udacity videos to support another course, because they?re > very helpful.? > > Mr. Siemens said what was happening was part of a natural process. ?We?re > moving from the hype to the implementation,? he said. ?It?s exciting to see > universities saying, ?Fine, you woke us up,? and beginning to grapple with > how the Internet can change the university, how it doesn?t have to be all > about teaching 25 people in a room. > > ?Now that we have the technology to teach 100,000 students online,? he > said, ?the next challenge will be scaling creativity, and finding a way > that even in a class of 100,000, adaptive learning can give each student a > personal experience.? > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Dec 20 18:27:52 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:27:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ventriloquation re-ducks In-Reply-To: <52B37FEC.2050806@mira.net> References: <52B37FEC.2050806@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, Yes, I am reflecting on the way these narratives and concepts are *hinged* [pivoting] around the search for *certainty* . It seems that there have been multiple genres that create narratives exploring the *development* of this relationship. For example one genre describes the transition FROM mythos [narrative] to logos [conceptual,] AS IF the narrative mode is less *real*. Then there are responses to this particular bias in alternative narratives Andy, I do not have the expansive background to know exactly when mythos shifted to narrative and logos shifted to conceptual. However what is fascinating is to *read* about these multiple transitions throughout our *traditions* and the ways these themes pivot around both narrative and the conceptual forever twisting and turning and being *retrieved* in new imaginal reflections This theme of searching for *certainty* [systems] and the tendency towards *closure* and the countervailing impulse to *extensions* and expansions and what is referred to as the *abyss* beyond all foundations [the groundless ground] . I am aware that the way I have just posed this theme has also been *explained* using a narrative mode as a particular *interpretation*. I'm also aware that this narrative has not come out of nowhere. It is composed within a tradition that continually returns to this pivot. larry On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I presume Larry is alluding to "mythos" in the Aristotlean sense which we > nowadays call "narrative" and "logos" in the sense we now call > "conceptual". So I took Larry's comment as related to connections between > the narrative and conceptual knowledge, which can make claim to be moving > to the concrete in the same sense that ideographic relates to nomothetic > science. Is that the same as Aritotlean vs Galilean? I'm not sure. > > Did I get that right, Larry? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Hi Larry-- Shifting relations between logos and mythos is rising to the >> concrete for you!? Far out!! >> >> >> For me a concrete case would be the way that adults seek to get kids to >> take on more logos by embedding >> "logistic" moments in computer games that are organized around myths that >> enable kids to make sense of the >> logocentric tradition as means for dealing with (always partially mythic!) >> world. Teaching everyone to how to open zones of care seems like a really >> interesting way to think about development..... until the orcs appear. >> >> Come ot think of it, a computer game of hobbits and orcs that taught the >> calculus as a side product would make a great xmas present for the >> learning >> sciences! >> :-) >> mike >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mike, >>> Moving to the concrete, recently I have been tracing the shifting >>> relations of the contrasting genres of muthos [myth] and >>> logos [rationality] and the polyphonic ways these genres have played out >>> as >>> particular understandings. However, what is fascinating is the way these >>> genres interweave throughout different epochs and either muthos or logos >>> can be in the ascending position. >>> To give one example, Hayden White explores the shifting understandings of >>> the relation of *the social* with *the cultural* as differing ways of >>> orienting to logos. Hayden wrote; >>> >>> "In many respects both Marxist and Western academic social science >>> regarded a pre - or unscientific human consciousness as the principal >>> cause >>> of the problems that a genuinely scientific study of society and its >>> processes would ultimately solve. Much like the Freud of *Civilization >>> and >>> its Discontents*, Marxist and Western academic social science agreed >>> that a >>> *civilization* undomesticated and undisciplined by scientific knowledge >>> of >>> human nature, society, and culture was the cause of the peculiar >>> *discontents* of a specifically *modern* society. From this ASSUMPTION >>> arose the desire informing both of these social sciences to *reduce* >>> culture to the status of an epiphenomenon of processes - specifically >>> social processes - which because they were intrinsically grounded in >>> humanity's relations with the material world and inherently utilitarian >>> or >>> aim-oriented in their motivation, could be construed AS RATIONAL.in their >>> articulation and therefore submissible to the ministrations of >>> scientifically DERIVED twchniques of manipulation, education, and >>> disciplination in a way that culture, conceived as *play*, *values*, >>> *superstition*, *art*, *religion* and the like, was not." [in "Beyond the >>> Cultural Turn", 1999, where Hayden White wrote the afterword to this >>> edited text] >>> >>> This is one fragment, and he goes on to also articulate the shift towards >>> the mythic voice in the ascendence. The multivoiced theme is left >>> ambiguous >>> and there is always *excess* beyond either muthos or logos. It is the >>> *ambiguity* and *ambivalence* that seems central. >>> >>> Mike, as I *read* Hayden above, I experience a type of ventriloquation of >>> the interweaving of muthos and logos though historical epochs. In the >>> above quote, Hayden is expressing a genre which expresses logos in the >>> ascendence and muthos is in a supporting role. >>> However, logos does not have the last word and other voices enter and >>> exit center stage. As I *read* narratives which trace the emergence of >>> different *genres* [concepts] it seems that the concept of *venting* may >>> be >>> appropriate as a way of expressing the interweaving voices across the >>> ages >>> that we hear in our current reflections. The multivoiced expressions of >>> our >>> internal and external *talk* seems to reverberate across multiple time >>> scales. However in each *turn* also is a *return* and this also can be >>> traced through human *development. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:23 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Larry-- The etymological research was Eugene, not me. Sorry if my >>>> summarizing was inaccurate on who said what. >>>> >>>> I assume there are a great many varieties and modes of ventriloquation >>>> that can be characterized the various terms you propose. In every case >>>> under consideration its clearly important to identify the communication >>>> in >>>> such terms to be relevant...... gotta rise to the concrete, and in doing >>>> so, to fill out the concept in as much detail as the conclusions you >>>> want >>>> to reach seem to require. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Larry Purss >>> >wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks, Mike. >>>>> >>>>> The exploration of voice *as* ventrilocation projected within >>>>> puppets circulating around persons and personas in character are using >>>>> metaphors of the stage and theater. [all life is a stage] >>>>> >>>>> I wonder more about the notion of the types of genres AND tropes >>>>> within >>>>> which the persona and masks are actually expressed. >>>>> I hear more the question of *voicedness* and *multivoicided* expressed >>>>> within multiple *traditions* [genres, tropes] and it is not merely our >>>>> personal voices being generated, but the actual *traditions* speaking >>>>> through us given voices which >>>>> , are *returning to the conversation. I wonder how often it is NOT the >>>>> puppets ventriloquating as it is our anscestors speaking? >>>>> The question *who* is doing the speaking is a deeply complex question. >>>>> Yes our voices can speak as *intra* voices, they can speak as inner and >>>>> outer voices, they can speak as outer voices but returning to the >>>>> discussion of play and playworlds, our are voices also expressed within >>>>> *worlds* emerging in our conversations. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to introduce a notion of*generous* readers and *generous >>>>> listeners* who in their interactions with interlocutors are also >>>>> participating with ancestors [and traditions, genres, tropes]. >>>>> Generous and >>>>> generativity as reading that OPENS ZONES OR CLEARINGS of *care*. >>>>> >>>>> I have been using the *concept* ventriloquation to express the truth >>>>> that we are all *crows* who steal each others egg words and fill them >>>>> with >>>>> our own *meanings* and *sense*[David K's metaphor]. >>>>> As Mike showed in the etymology of the word *ventriloquation* there are >>>>> many crows. However these egg words when transformed [translated] are >>>>> also >>>>> expressing particular *traditions* within which the newly filled egg >>>>> word >>>>> makes sense. >>>>> >>>>> Ventriloquintation as an egg word is not making puppets or masks speak. >>>>> I wonder if it is more constitutive a process that develop how *I* >>>>> speak. >>>>> This notion of 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person *voice* as >>>>> constituting new forms of *character formation [and new forms of >>>>> socioability. >>>>> >>>>> I'll pause >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Dec 20 19:34:07 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 20:34:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture In-Reply-To: References: <1AC9535B-4A6B-44CE-A91B-B33231893511@uniandes.edu.co> <1386546817.13912.YahooMailNeo@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1386578818.71464.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <007d01cef540$b5c8c970$215a5c50$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: So then: Why no 5th Dimension for nursing homes? (perhaps we are too much of a generationally downward-looking society?) -greg On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:33 AM, mike cole wrote: > What you remind us of, Valerie, that the problem under discussion is > pervasively felt in our various social worlds with their various ways of > organizing human relations in the face of scarcity. It is part aging of > some populations, devestated economies of others, ecological devestgation > of others..... the kill-for hopes and fears of others. > > About care at home. A friend of mine who was born in a small, poor, Vermont > town around 1915 once talked about the way that the old folks in his town > were cared for at home. When they could no longer able to care for > themselves, they were given a space in the attic or a back room where there > was no heat.... kind of like being assigned to an ice flow. > > My aunt, who lived in NYC from about 1945 until her > death a few years ago, lived in one of those alienated apartment buildings. > But she lived opposite the mailboxes and over time her apartment became a > late night refuge for neighbors dragging in from long work days, or to pick > up packages the mailman could not leave at the post-box. She died among a > veritable building full of people caring for her. > > I believe (Peter will know) that there is ample evidence to show that > simple conversational practices where, for example, college kids come > visiting to chat about what they are doing and in turn getting their > elderly and memory-challenged interlocutors chatting about anything at all, > but about what they did that day, what they saw on television, what they > used to do when they were young, recuperates all sorts of function. > > It does not require a rocket scientist to create a zoped. > And culture has everything to do with it! > > mike > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:42 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < > vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > > > Hello, everyone! > > This thread is way too exciting to just sit on the sidelines. I am > > invested > > in this because I did time with my aging grandmother, and abused her in > my > > ignorance of how to deal with the frustration of "dementia" without a > > social > > network to support. Only my father "laying down the law" so to speak, > got > > "the family" to put my grandmother in a retirement home. Which was > > horrible. All she had was one picture of the dog in a frame. Three > > dresses. > > Hospital gown. (Sigh.) > > > > Shift to Japan and teaching a GST discussion seminar. I'm toying with a > > phrase, "Where Humanity meets Science and Technology". Also, I have a > > unique opportunity to give two lectures to Engineering students about CSR > > (Corporate Social Responsibility) which leads almost directly to Ethics. > > And not the ethics of THE BOTTOM LINE. There has been work done with > this, > > such as 3BL (3 Bottom Lines) Financial Capital, Social Capital, and > Natural > > Capital. > > > > For example, UK and "austerity programs". My friend had to intervene to > > get > > a parent out of a home because they would not re-evaluate certain tests, > > reports of deliberately starving and putting water out of reach. He is a > > priest and a very conservative person and is not making this up. He has > > real friends who experience the impact of these policies for themselves > and > > their parents. I am in Japan. I had to make a choice between an > "insurance > > backed" rehabilitation hospital and rehabilitation with my > "dysfunctional" > > family. Family wins hands down, because I know, I have been here for 33 > > years and had two babies, I know what the nursing staff and > rehabilitation > > staff will do and what they won't. > > > > Not wanting to toss myself in a self-devised oubliette, I want to talk > > about > > this for real. I am nearly 60, my mother is still alive, and this is all > > very real to me in lived-life personal ways. I know something of the > > experiences of students whom I teach, who are entering adulthood with the > > voices and classes of a team of teacher and staff who are tasked with > > helping them enter adulthood, and take on the full responsibility of a > > member of society. 20 seems really young! > > > > I have a feeling that my dashed out note may not survive coherence tests, > > but the key is quality of life, and richness is cultural, and human > > richness > > abides in a loved familiar environment. This connects to the old and the > > very young. Some studies have linked SIDS to being a very lonely baby. > Of > > course I "cherry-pick" my stuff according to my bias. > > Valerie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of peter jones > > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 5:47 PM > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memory, aging and culture > > > > Hi Mike, All > > > > I can't identify a literature but am sure there is one (culturally > > orientated) out there such is the prospective scale of the challenges. > > Emerging you would hope? > > > > > > In Feb 2011 I gave a presentation and workshop in Paipa, Colombia. I > used a > > case study of an elderly lady living alone. > > Very common here in the UK and yet the audience in Colombia could not > > really > > identify with this scenario. > > The family would assure the well-being of their family member, except in > > extremis. In this sense the culture in Colombia could be said to be > 'rich' > > in comparison with the loneliness and alienation frequently experienced > in > > the UK. > > > > > > Mental health services in the UK have lost 1700 beds in the past two > years > > (Health Service Journal) due to austerity measures. This might mean > family > > have a 30 mile or more trip to visit a relative in hospital. > > > > > > There are studies that espouse a role for telecare to facilitate people > > maintaining their independence with other sources of support. > > > > You might refer to the health policy debate and eventual emergence of a > > 'dementia strategy' or other governmental response as measure of some > sort? > > > > In terms of the sciences and political (mechanistic) domains of Hodges' > > model, governments (e.g. UK) needs to know how prevalent the problem is. > > Therefore the emphasis is still upon diagnosis, or more accurately > > 'screening'. > > > > I have advocated for more local use of geographic information systems - > GIS > > to consider such activities. For example, which family doctors are > > referring > > people, which are not and if so why not? > > > > There is a fascinating question(?) in what a culture considers > 'challenging > > behaviour'? With this is 'tolerance' of individuals, through to family > and > > communities. When medical language is introduced then 'sense making' is > > radically altered (of course)? > > > > The cultural impacts are yet to be fully realised and if there is a > > connection with diabetes may be even greater than thought (without > > scaremongering)? > > > > > > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029453.400-are-alzheimers-and-diabet > > es-the-same-disease.html#.UqWAnOLm72k > > > > The cultural expectations around driving could also be very interesting, > > having the grace to give up the car when the time comes. This will (is) > not > > easy for a great many people. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Peter Jones > > Lancashire, UK > > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > > Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > > http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > > > > > On Monday, 9 December 2013, 0:47, mike cole wrote: > > > > Facinating. > > The link between involvement in cultural practices as a function of > > age/health and memory > > seems to have opened up a lot of considerations of common interest. As > > Geraldine suggests > > word meaning is a central phenomenon associated with memory loss and > Peter > > reveals > > himself as deeply involved in the issues that Laure's question provoked. > > And > > look at the > > geographic/temporal distribution of this concentrated "intelligence." > > > > Peter, is there a literature on cultural differences in partterns of say, > > dementia, or Alzheimers, when societies adopt our most civilized > practices? > > Clearly you are pointing toward a shift in the kinds of issues changing > > demographics will pose socially and economically, which I think requires > a > > corresponding shift in cultural practices and their associated meanins. > > > > Am I tracking this right? > > (Asked the old man, speaking of dimentia) > > :-)) > > mike > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:53 PM, peter jones wrote: > > > > Culturally one of the factors must be what is 'home'? > > > > > >Another extends beyond cultural perception to involve politics and > policy. > > With an ageing population we (health services - private as well as > public) > > need older adults to retain their independence and if needed to be cared > > for > > at home and to die at home and not in hospital. > > > > > > > > >The following may help in specifics around dementia. > > > > > >http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/349714/13/dementia%20specialist%20nurses.pdf > > > > > >Culturally are we ready for more people to die at home?. > > > > > >I also blogged this w/e about residential care and deprivation of > liberty: > > > > > > > > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/reading-and-writing-minutia-of-l > > ocked.html > > > > > >There are other posts on dementia & memory which may illuminate several > > dimensions. > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > > > > >Peter Jones > > >Lancashire, UK > > >Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > > >http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > > >Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model > > >http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ > > >h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > > >http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > > > > > > > > >On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 21:49, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > > > >I suspect that 'memory loss' with age also depends on cultural > *practices* > > of memory. I know couples where one person is largely responsible for > > remembering things for both. In the US, the UK and elsewhere we tend to > put > > old people in institutions where no one knows their history, whereas in > > cultures where old'uns continue to have a place in the family, their > > relatives know what they need to recall and can do so for them, or help > > them > > do so. > > > > > >Martin > > > > > > > > >On Dec 8, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Mike, > > >> > > >> I agree the question was quick and fuzzy, > > > sorry. I wonder to what extent > > >> the extended complaint on memory loss (especially loss of episodic > > >> memories, related to specific events of one's life) by people who are > > >> getting old in our current societies is related to cultural factors > > >> (including social expectations towards a precise memory, esp. relating > > to > > >> one's own life events, and anxiety to get old, including fear of > > Alzheimer > > >> pathology, for example). We know that the way we sleep, our sleeping > > >> cycles, are influenced by our culture. I guess our perception of our > > memory > > >> performance and accuracy is also influenced by cultural factors, and I > > >> wonder if some colleagues have been working on these topics. Which > > cultural > > >> dimensions worsen or improve the situation regarding memory problems > and > > >> aging ? > > >> Thanks for your help ! > > >> Best regards, > > >> LK > > >> > > >> > > >> 2013/12/8 mike cole > > >> > > >>> What does the term, cultural perceptions mean, Laure? The answer to > > that > > >>> question would help a lot in answering your questions. > > >>> mikec > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>> I am looking for references on aging, and how memory loss is > affected > > by > > >>>> cultural perceptions. Would you have some references to point me to > ? > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> LK > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Dec 20 20:03:34 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:03:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture change in a preschool using positive language In-Reply-To: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> References: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Derek, It seems like there is a very interesting Vygotskian connection in this talk - in the notion of fleshing out the meaning of a concept like "helpful". As parents we often present concepts like these in the negative "... you're not being very helpful..." and less often do we give children a sense for what these good concepts really mean. Instead we often pick out "bad" concepts. And compare the common refrain in poor inner-city communities in the U.S. "Stop the violence" - an important message, but I think it is the wrong one. Much better would be the more positive message: "Start something". I wonder what others make of the process of teaching/learning everyday concepts like "kindness" (but these are perhaps as complex as any scientific concepts - and multiply so since they carry a moral weight that scientific concepts seem to lack). Any thoughts? -greg On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Derek Patton wrote: > Dear folks, > This talk is really about changing children's concepts of themselves and > others by changing the culture of the preschool, in the Zone of proximal > development and the teachers' loan of consciousness to them at those > teachable moments. I was told NOT to be an academic and make it simple and > exciting to get the general public interested. I would be interested in any > input for the next time, in the sense that I am trying to get these ideas > across in the viewers' Zone, so they actually go away with at least one > thing they might do to change the world, their world, a child's world. > > If the link doesn't come through, just google Derek patton TEDx on YouTube. > > Published on 5 Dec 2013 > Derek Patton explores the role of positive language - specifically, the > language of virtues - in engaging with young people with conduct disorders. > > Derek is a child and family psychologist finishing his PhD on the topic of > teacher dialogue that develops children's thinking abilities at the > University of Melbourne's Graduate School of Education. He is also a casual > lecturer and academic mentor in the Master of School Leadership degree > training school principals in whole school positive culture change. He > currently works in Victoria schools as a psychologist and previously worked > in youth justice, specialist residential schools and with traumatised > immigrant children. > > The common thread in his research and practice has been the use of a > positive language of change optimizing capacities and hope. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uptMwDiJn-I > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Dec 20 20:03:34 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:03:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture change in a preschool using positive language In-Reply-To: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> References: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Derek, It seems like there is a very interesting Vygotskian connection in this talk - in the notion of fleshing out the meaning of a concept like "helpful". As parents we often present concepts like these in the negative "... you're not being very helpful..." and less often do we give children a sense for what these good concepts really mean. Instead we often pick out "bad" concepts. And compare the common refrain in poor inner-city communities in the U.S. "Stop the violence" - an important message, but I think it is the wrong one. Much better would be the more positive message: "Start something". I wonder what others make of the process of teaching/learning everyday concepts like "kindness" (but these are perhaps as complex as any scientific concepts - and multiply so since they carry a moral weight that scientific concepts seem to lack). Any thoughts? -greg On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Derek Patton wrote: > Dear folks, > This talk is really about changing children's concepts of themselves and > others by changing the culture of the preschool, in the Zone of proximal > development and the teachers' loan of consciousness to them at those > teachable moments. I was told NOT to be an academic and make it simple and > exciting to get the general public interested. I would be interested in any > input for the next time, in the sense that I am trying to get these ideas > across in the viewers' Zone, so they actually go away with at least one > thing they might do to change the world, their world, a child's world. > > If the link doesn't come through, just google Derek patton TEDx on YouTube. > > Published on 5 Dec 2013 > Derek Patton explores the role of positive language - specifically, the > language of virtues - in engaging with young people with conduct disorders. > > Derek is a child and family psychologist finishing his PhD on the topic of > teacher dialogue that develops children's thinking abilities at the > University of Melbourne's Graduate School of Education. He is also a casual > lecturer and academic mentor in the Master of School Leadership degree > training school principals in whole school positive culture change. He > currently works in Victoria schools as a psychologist and previously worked > in youth justice, specialist residential schools and with traumatised > immigrant children. > > The common thread in his research and practice has been the use of a > positive language of change optimizing capacities and hope. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uptMwDiJn-I > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Dec 21 18:29:11 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 02:29:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture change in a preschool using positive language In-Reply-To: References: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 December 2013 04:03, Greg Thompson wrote: > Derek, > It seems like there is a very interesting Vygotskian connection in this > talk - in the notion of fleshing out the meaning of a concept like > "helpful". As parents we often present concepts like these in the negative > "... you're not being very helpful..." and less often do we give children a > sense for what these good concepts really mean. Instead we often pick out > "bad" concepts. And compare the common refrain in poor inner-city > communities in the U.S. "Stop the violence" - an important message, but I > think it is the wrong one. Much better would be the more positive message: > "Start something". > All three can be rather authoritarian. Wouldn't you say? > > I wonder what others make of the process of teaching/learning everyday > concepts like "kindness" (but these are perhaps as complex as any > scientific concepts - and multiply so since they carry a moral weight that > scientific concepts seem to lack). > Any thoughts? > Well, the technical business of what is being referred to here is the naming of behaviours and attitudes. The conception is imputed to what the child does on their own, i.e. build up an image of what helpful means. I watched as far as the experimental paradigm, "double blind, single subject design" ... its all in the saying, I guess. What I didn't "hear" was "we're attending carefully to each individual situation" rather I heard "we're getting data" similarly "intervening with the virtues project" got me wondering about how the momentum of a project could influence how long one eye-balls a student for, or how clipped one utters one's words (along the lines of weighing words as one may assess a chess move as one undertakes it -- the sort of social dynamic that an experimental design might overlook). I've nothing against the vid., some impressions, some thoughts. Best, Huw > -greg > > > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Derek Patton >wrote: > > > Dear folks, > > This talk is really about changing children's concepts of themselves and > > others by changing the culture of the preschool, in the Zone of proximal > > development and the teachers' loan of consciousness to them at those > > teachable moments. I was told NOT to be an academic and make it simple > and > > exciting to get the general public interested. I would be interested in > any > > input for the next time, in the sense that I am trying to get these ideas > > across in the viewers' Zone, so they actually go away with at least one > > thing they might do to change the world, their world, a child's world. > > > > If the link doesn't come through, just google Derek patton TEDx on > YouTube. > > > > Published on 5 Dec 2013 > > Derek Patton explores the role of positive language - specifically, the > > language of virtues - in engaging with young people with conduct > disorders. > > > > Derek is a child and family psychologist finishing his PhD on the topic > of > > teacher dialogue that develops children's thinking abilities at the > > University of Melbourne's Graduate School of Education. He is also a > casual > > lecturer and academic mentor in the Master of School Leadership degree > > training school principals in whole school positive culture change. He > > currently works in Victoria schools as a psychologist and previously > worked > > in youth justice, specialist residential schools and with traumatised > > immigrant children. > > > > The common thread in his research and practice has been the use of a > > positive language of change optimizing capacities and hope. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uptMwDiJn-I > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Dec 21 18:29:11 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 02:29:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture change in a preschool using positive language In-Reply-To: References: <018501cef3b6$6963f900$3c2beb00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 December 2013 04:03, Greg Thompson wrote: > Derek, > It seems like there is a very interesting Vygotskian connection in this > talk - in the notion of fleshing out the meaning of a concept like > "helpful". As parents we often present concepts like these in the negative > "... you're not being very helpful..." and less often do we give children a > sense for what these good concepts really mean. Instead we often pick out > "bad" concepts. And compare the common refrain in poor inner-city > communities in the U.S. "Stop the violence" - an important message, but I > think it is the wrong one. Much better would be the more positive message: > "Start something". > All three can be rather authoritarian. Wouldn't you say? > > I wonder what others make of the process of teaching/learning everyday > concepts like "kindness" (but these are perhaps as complex as any > scientific concepts - and multiply so since they carry a moral weight that > scientific concepts seem to lack). > Any thoughts? > Well, the technical business of what is being referred to here is the naming of behaviours and attitudes. The conception is imputed to what the child does on their own, i.e. build up an image of what helpful means. I watched as far as the experimental paradigm, "double blind, single subject design" ... its all in the saying, I guess. What I didn't "hear" was "we're attending carefully to each individual situation" rather I heard "we're getting data" similarly "intervening with the virtues project" got me wondering about how the momentum of a project could influence how long one eye-balls a student for, or how clipped one utters one's words (along the lines of weighing words as one may assess a chess move as one undertakes it -- the sort of social dynamic that an experimental design might overlook). I've nothing against the vid., some impressions, some thoughts. Best, Huw > -greg > > > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Derek Patton >wrote: > > > Dear folks, > > This talk is really about changing children's concepts of themselves and > > others by changing the culture of the preschool, in the Zone of proximal > > development and the teachers' loan of consciousness to them at those > > teachable moments. I was told NOT to be an academic and make it simple > and > > exciting to get the general public interested. I would be interested in > any > > input for the next time, in the sense that I am trying to get these ideas > > across in the viewers' Zone, so they actually go away with at least one > > thing they might do to change the world, their world, a child's world. > > > > If the link doesn't come through, just google Derek patton TEDx on > YouTube. > > > > Published on 5 Dec 2013 > > Derek Patton explores the role of positive language - specifically, the > > language of virtues - in engaging with young people with conduct > disorders. > > > > Derek is a child and family psychologist finishing his PhD on the topic > of > > teacher dialogue that develops children's thinking abilities at the > > University of Melbourne's Graduate School of Education. He is also a > casual > > lecturer and academic mentor in the Master of School Leadership degree > > training school principals in whole school positive culture change. He > > currently works in Victoria schools as a psychologist and previously > worked > > in youth justice, specialist residential schools and with traumatised > > immigrant children. > > > > The common thread in his research and practice has been the use of a > > positive language of change optimizing capacities and hope. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uptMwDiJn-I > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Dec 25 14:55:03 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 17:55:03 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: <09ddf50830d2f9a595ec410b62545ad9.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: I am returning to Sweden in the Spring, briefly, and Monica and I are finding a way to collect this data even though the "data collection" phase of the project is now, officially, finished. Yes, it is hard to imagine and I would not have believed it if I had not seen it myself. We are having these Swedish preschools offer guidance, training and models for various aspects of a preschool that a group of people here in Brooklyn are trying to start in conjunction with a Promise Neighborhoods organization. We'll see what happens. I have been thinking, though, that this type of practice MAY require the creation of a type of community that is not possible unless you keep families out of the process -- and that this will not work in the US -- but this is just my thinking lately and I could be entirely wrong. Actually I am feeling since I returned that I can not imagine widespread high-quality public preschool in the US, because preschools are at the intersection of family and state, and we are relatively good at keeping these two separate -- . Beth On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, mike cole wrote: > Beth-- I look forward to seeing a careful report of the practices that you > are describing. It remains difficult to > imagine a one year old whose language production skills we are used to > think of as limited engaging in the kinds of interactions you describe. Are > you planning to replicate this kind of pedagogical practice in Brooklyn? > mike > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > Thank you for this comment, Larry -- here is the Tarulli, and the one you > > mention with Robert Lecusay -- Beth > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > I am remembering the discussion of playworlds and the zo-ped as helping > > the > > > adults *grow up* within socratic dialogues with children. > > > An article was referenced which I am would like to read that was > > referenced > > > in the article: > > > > > > Cheyne, J. A and Tarulli, D (1999) Dialogue ,difference, and voice in > the > > > zone of proximal development. Theory and Psychology, 9, 5-28. > > > > > > If it is possible to send a cop.y I would appreciate this.. > > > > > > The exploration of desire and motivation and the adult being > transformed > > > [and developing] within the intersubjective engagement [and enactment] > in > > > the zo-ped is what I find fascinating. This depth of *care and concern* > > for > > > the child's *voice* moving from the magisterial TO the socratic voice > > seems > > > a radical [going to the root] of the zo-ped. > > > Thanks, > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Beth Ferholt > > wrote: > > > > > > > This is very very helpful, Artin. Monica and I are both about to fly > > to > > > > the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss > > and > > > > respond in a couple weeks. Thank you! Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Beth and Monica-- > > > > > > > > > > Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I > > > don't > > > > > remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is > > > redundant > > > > > or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it.. > > > > > > > > > > In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to > > development > > > of > > > > > symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the > > > > > motivation for play. A shared conviction among theorists like > Freud, > > > > > Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense > of > > an > > > > > affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), > to > > > > > develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to > > > > anticipate > > > > > future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.) > > I > > > > > believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young > > > children > > > > > as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with > > > children > > > > > who had learning disabilities. Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about > > these > > > > > issues together before too. Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of > > > play > > > > > in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this > > > idea > > > > > too. So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the > > connection > > > > > between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will > be > > > > > easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of > personal > > > > > significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize > that > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented. In > > the > > > > > 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue. She argued > > and > > > > > showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a > familiar > > > > > personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an > > > infant's > > > > > pretending to drink from an empty bottle. Greta called this > > > > > de-contextualization. With age, a de-contextualized event gets > > > > > transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and > > > > > opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts. In > > > other > > > > > words, something can be represented either through a very > structured > > > toy > > > > > or not using any object at all. So, if we see symbolization taking > > > place > > > > > in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to > > > > symbolic > > > > > development. (One example I can think of from the arts is how > > > > > representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from > > > tree > > > > > figures to geometric shapes...) > > > > > > > > > > Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and > > > symbolic > > > > > development will be easier to see if we understand the connection > > > between > > > > > play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there > > is > > > a > > > > > developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get > > > > > represented in play. > > > > > > > > > > All the best, ag > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > > > > We apologize for the delay responding: > > > > > > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the > > > suggestions > > > > > > and > > > > > > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response > ... > > > > > > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much > from > > > > > > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working > as > > > from > > > > > > observations of teaching and learning: > > > > > > > > > > > > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some > > dichotomies > > > > > that > > > > > > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- > but > > > also > > > > > > between symbolic thought and play. So, to the many of you who > said > > > > this: > > > > > > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us > > try a > > > > > > different approach to this dilemma. Peg: Mash up -- yes! But > > before > > > > > they > > > > > > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash? > > > > > > > > > > > > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator > > > between > > > > > > art > > > > > > and play when she developed playworlds. Discussions with Kiyo > > > > (Mizasaki) > > > > > > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to > this > > > > > > question. So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: > Learning > > > to > > > > > > Draw > > > > > > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980. > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the > > way > > > > > they > > > > > > work with the children. This is based in what they do in their > art > > > > > > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an > > > > atelierista > > > > > > in > > > > > > the Reggio Emilia preschools). They spend lots and lots of time > > with > > > > the > > > > > > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the > > > children > > > > > > are > > > > > > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping > > them > > > to > > > > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > > > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the > > > > > children > > > > > > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from > > > meaning, > > > > is > > > > > > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic > > > representation > > > > > > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc. The > > > > teachers > > > > > > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is > > careful > > > > > > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about > > how > > > > to > > > > > > represent what they see. The bus is long -- this is why we have > a > > > long > > > > > > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that > > they > > > > > rode > > > > > > that AM!) here -- ). The bus is what color? What paint will you > > > use? > > > > > > They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere > with > > > this > > > > > > process. If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is > about > > > > color > > > > > > (not lines) then they have a thick brush. Also, the emphasis is > on > > > the > > > > > > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to > > draw. > > > > In > > > > > > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that > > the > > > > > > stick > > > > > > (picture) is a horse (bus). (The children really do shine at > this > > > > > moment, > > > > > > it is wild!) > > > > > > > > > > > > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can > > > make > > > > a > > > > > > blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar > > with > > > > > > pivots. The lesson was not actually about painting. Or, it > was, > > > but > > > > > the > > > > > > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, > > and > > > > it > > > > > > was a lesson about representation. > > > > > > > > > > > > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this > > > > > > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos > > laminated > > > on > > > > > > them. In the block area they and their friends -- represented by > > > > toilet > > > > > > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make. When the > two > > > > year > > > > > > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could > SEE > > > > that > > > > > > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the > > > responses > > > > > > you > > > > > > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all. > > > > > > > > > > > > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our > IRB > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > allow it. > > > > > > > > > > > > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) ! Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between > > you > > > > all > > > > > > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our > development > > in > > > > > > relation to this problem! > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth and Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > > > >> Beth, > > > > > >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you > describe. > > > Over > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was > deemed > > > > > >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There > was a > > > > time > > > > > >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees > > were > > > > > >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the > USA > > > had > > > > to > > > > > >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained > > > > > >> credibility. > > > > > >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling > and > > > > then > > > > > >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of > Derrida > > > as > > > > a > > > > > >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to > have a > > > > > >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of > the > > > > > >> towering > > > > > >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of > > the > > > > > >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). > > > > > >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object > > > > substitutions > > > > > >> at > > > > > >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of > > grass > > > > as > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious > > > > > >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year > of > > > > life, > > > > > >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. > > > > > >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real > lock, > > > on a > > > > > >> door > > > > > >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the > > > > toddler > > > > > >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking > > the > > > > > >> door? > > > > > >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a > > > > > >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional > gestures > > > such > > > > > >> as > > > > > >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle > > of > > > > the > > > > > >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' > > function.Certainly, > > > > > >> naming > > > > > >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be > evidence.From > > > your > > > > > >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' > and > > > > > >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were > > leading > > > > the > > > > > >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided > > > pretend > > > > > >> play > > > > > >> that was scaffolded by the adults. > > > > > >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object > > > substitutions > > > > > >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six > children > > > from > > > > > >> 14 > > > > > >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation > at > > > 14 > > > > > >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her > lips > > as > > > > if > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible > > > > substance'). > > > > > >> The > > > > > >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' > definition > > of > > > > > >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) > > > with > > > > an > > > > > >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded. > > > > > >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in > Amsterdam, > > > at > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and > > soon > > > > > >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware > of > > > the > > > > > >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not > > > associated > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a > book > > > > > >> titled > > > > > >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age > > one > > > > > >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). > > > > > >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research > that > > > > Bert > > > > > >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship > > > > between > > > > > >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a > very > > > > > >> narrow > > > > > >> review of just Activity Theory based studies. > > > > > >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you > get > > > it > > > > > >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of > > > > > >> Chicago. I > > > > > >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > > > > > >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > > >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in > > this > > > > > >> chain > > > > > >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been > hard > > at > > > > > >> work > > > > > >> > thinking and reading in response! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- > > > > > >> Francine, > > > > > >> can > > > > > >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much > of > > > it > > > > of > > > > > >> it, > > > > > >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language > > > > development, > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very > > > interesting > > > > > >> talk, > > > > > >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was > > > inconclusive > > > > > >> (a > > > > > >> > 2013 literature review ? ). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following > > dilemma: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are > generally > > > > > >> suspicious > > > > > >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write > > > some > > > > of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > > > > > >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that > > > > supports > > > > > >> a > > > > > >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze > before > > > > > >> Piaget > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass > > > compared > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that > > > (because > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young > > > > children, > > > > > >> or > > > > > >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of > > > > showing > > > > > >> us > > > > > >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not > right. > > > They > > > > > >> show > > > > > >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one > > year > > > > olds > > > > > >> are > > > > > >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give > > hour-long > > > > > >> > presentations to us : ). > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade > of > > > > grass > > > > > >> was > > > > > >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw > > > > inside. > > > > > >> They > > > > > >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my > > own > > > > > >> just-two > > > > > >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a > > > year, > > > > > >> could > > > > > >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to > have > > an > > > > > >> idea > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think > more > > > > about > > > > > >> why I > > > > > >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many > > children > > > in > > > > > >> my > > > > > >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it > come > > > to > > > > > >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I > knew > > > > really > > > > > >> well > > > > > >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the > > > > relationship > > > > > >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what > > we > > > > are > > > > > >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that > when > > we > > > > > >> wrote > > > > > >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and > longitudinal > > > > > >> experiment > > > > > >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not > develop > > : > > > ) > > > > . > > > > > >> Of > > > > > >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably > not > > > > right? > > > > > >> So > > > > > >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of > symbolic > > > > > >> thought, > > > > > >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey > would > > be > > > > > >> much > > > > > >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without > > defending > > > > > >> what > > > > > >> we > > > > > >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are > > > more > > > > > >> capable > > > > > >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, > > > very > > > > > >> young, > > > > > >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts > > (in > > > > > >> which > > > > > >> we > > > > > >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really > the > > > > > >> competent > > > > > >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about > > after > > > > our > > > > > >> > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be > > less > > > > > >> about > > > > > >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their > > > emphasis > > > > > >> on > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha < > > > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > > > >> >wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > >> > > Beth, > > > > > >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > > > > >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > > > > >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind > Preschool > > > > > >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans > > these > > > > > >> four > > > > > >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of > > > > > >> Chicago.While > > > > > >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all > > four > > > > > >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach > > the > > > > > >> children to > > > > > >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much > > > potential > > > > > >> here > > > > > >> for > > > > > >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in > > > learning > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> use > > > > > >> > > symbol systems. > > > > > >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > > > > >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > > >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is > > helpful. > > > > > >> And > > > > > >> yes, > > > > > >> > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes > me > > > > think > > > > > >> more > > > > > >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working > with > > > are > > > > > >> posing > > > > > >> > > to > > > > > >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child > > development > > > > ... > > > > > >> I > > > > > >> think > > > > > >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my > > > > question, > > > > > >> above. > > > > > >> > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then > we > > > need > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> ask > > > > > >> > > why > > > > > >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly > > > efficient > > > > at > > > > > >> what > > > > > >> > > it > > > > > >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. > > > Thank > > > > > >> you! > > > > > >> > > Beth > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > > > > > >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com > > > > > >> > > >wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > >> > > > > Beth, > > > > > >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend > > play > > > > > >> (such > > > > > >> as > > > > > >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot > > for > > > > > >> separating > > > > > >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture > with > > a > > > > > >> non-replica > > > > > >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using > > > pictorial > > > > > >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals > in > > > > > >> drawings, i. > > > > > >> > > e., > > > > > >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and > > > > > >> numerical > > > > > >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study > > that > > > > > >> documented > > > > > >> > > this > > > > > >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused > > on > > > > > >> specific > > > > > >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of > Chicago > > > > > >> > > 1991documented > > > > > >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend > > > play > > > > (a > > > > > >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) > > > Isn't > > > > > >> that > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand > > for > > > > > >> another > > > > > >> > > > > (re-present another)??? > > > > > >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > > >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > > >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing > > > that > > > > > >> play > > > > > >> > > allows > > > > > >> > > > > for > > > > > >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have > > an > > > > idea > > > > > >> what > > > > > >> > > this > > > > > >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done > > is > > > > > >> fine! > > > > > >> Beth > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > > >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the > > > > > >> relationship > > > > > >> > > between > > > > > >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for > research > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > substantiate? Are > > > > > >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of > > > > > >> research? > > > > > >> The > > > > > >> > > path > > > > > >> > > > > is > > > > > >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's > thoughts > > > > > >> encompassed > > > > > >> > > > > larger > > > > > >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to > research > > on > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> topic > > > > > >> > > > > can be > > > > > >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my > > > > experience > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > > hunting > > > > > >> > > > > it > > > > > >> > > > > > > down :) > > > > > >> > > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth > > > > Ferholt > > > > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > > >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work > > on > > > > the > > > > > >> > > > > relationship > > > > > >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being > > > > challenged > > > > > >> by > > > > > >> > > Swedish > > > > > >> > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that > shows > > > > > >> Vygotsky was > > > > > >> > > > > correct > > > > > >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't > find > > > any! > > > > > >> > > > > > > Tanks, > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > > >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > >> > > > > > > School of Education > > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > > > > > >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > >> > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > >> > > > > > School of Education > > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > -- > > > > > >> > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > >> > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > >> > > > School of Education > > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > -- > > > > > >> > Beth Ferholt > > > > > >> > Assistant Professor > > > > > >> > School of Education > > > > > >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > School of Education > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > > > > Professor Emeritus, > > > > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > > > > College of Education M/C 147 > > > > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > > > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > School of Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Dec 31 12:58:54 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 12:58:54 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The 5thD in 2D Message-ID: Dear Colleagues-- The link below leads you to a film about LCHC's recent history developing the line of research that Peg Griffin began some 30 years ago with the initiation of the 5th Dimension project. It complements, in visual form, several written articles about the project that have been appearing in recent years and includes a good deal that we have never written about (and probably never will!). For those of you who are curious, here is an account of what a good many folks at LCHC have been up to in the past decade or so. http://youtu.be/2wlrJIa8A7s Andy Rice, who put this film together welcomes your feedback, as do all of those involved in its creation. (In place of one of those interminable written summaries of the year past!!) And with best wishes for the new year. mike From nataliag@sfu.ca Tue Dec 31 13:27:10 2013 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 13:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Thank you for sharing, Mike! Prekrasno! Happy New Year to all! Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:58:54 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] The 5thD in 2D Dear Colleagues-- The link below leads you to a film about LCHC's recent history developing the line of research that Peg Griffin began some 30 years ago with the initiation of the 5th Dimension project. It complements, in visual form, several written articles about the project that have been appearing in recent years and includes a good deal that we have never written about (and probably never will!). For those of you who are curious, here is an account of what a good many folks at LCHC have been up to in the past decade or so. http://youtu.be/2wlrJIa8A7s Andy Rice, who put this film together welcomes your feedback, as do all of those involved in its creation. (In place of one of those interminable written summaries of the year past!!) And with best wishes for the new year. mike From nataliag@sfu.ca Tue Dec 31 13:27:10 2013 From: nataliag@sfu.ca (Natalia Gajdamaschko) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 13:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Thank you for sharing, Mike! Prekrasno! Happy New Year to all! Natalia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:58:54 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] The 5thD in 2D Dear Colleagues-- The link below leads you to a film about LCHC's recent history developing the line of research that Peg Griffin began some 30 years ago with the initiation of the 5th Dimension project. It complements, in visual form, several written articles about the project that have been appearing in recent years and includes a good deal that we have never written about (and probably never will!). For those of you who are curious, here is an account of what a good many folks at LCHC have been up to in the past decade or so. http://youtu.be/2wlrJIa8A7s Andy Rice, who put this film together welcomes your feedback, as do all of those involved in its creation. (In place of one of those interminable written summaries of the year past!!) And with best wishes for the new year. mike From blantonwe@comcast.net Tue Dec 31 14:08:49 2013 From: blantonwe@comcast.net (Bill Blanton) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1855461943.6827762.1388527729248.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Well done Mike. !!! BB ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:58:54 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] The 5thD in 2D Dear Colleagues-- The link below leads you to a film about LCHC's recent history developing the line of research that Peg Griffin began some 30 years ago with the initiation of the 5th Dimension project. It complements, in visual form, several written articles about the project that have been appearing in recent years and includes a good deal that we have never written about (and probably never will!). For those of you who are curious, here is an account of what a good many folks at LCHC have been up to in the past decade or so. http://youtu.be/2wlrJIa8A7s Andy Rice, who put this film together welcomes your feedback, as do all of those involved in its creation. (In place of one of those interminable written summaries of the year past!!) And with best wishes for the new year. mike From blantonwe@comcast.net Tue Dec 31 14:08:49 2013 From: blantonwe@comcast.net (Bill Blanton) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1855461943.6827762.1388527729248.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> Well done Mike. !!! BB ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:58:54 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] The 5thD in 2D Dear Colleagues-- The link below leads you to a film about LCHC's recent history developing the line of research that Peg Griffin began some 30 years ago with the initiation of the 5th Dimension project. It complements, in visual form, several written articles about the project that have been appearing in recent years and includes a good deal that we have never written about (and probably never will!). For those of you who are curious, here is an account of what a good many folks at LCHC have been up to in the past decade or so. http://youtu.be/2wlrJIa8A7s Andy Rice, who put this film together welcomes your feedback, as do all of those involved in its creation. (In place of one of those interminable written summaries of the year past!!) And with best wishes for the new year. mike From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 31 14:19:42 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:19:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> References: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Its great to have a potted 5d open film. The "simplicity" helps to bring out the variety of challenges. Its nice to have to simply watch and ponder too. I had to skip about a bit to work out what "the bus children being squeezed out" (15 mins) meant ("bus kids" came from the inner city -- i.e. buses used for distance rather than safety). Best, Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Dec 31 14:19:42 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:19:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The 5thD in 2D In-Reply-To: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> References: <1401900933.42106175.1388525230196.JavaMail.root@jaguar9.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Its great to have a potted 5d open film. The "simplicity" helps to bring out the variety of challenges. Its nice to have to simply watch and ponder too. I had to skip about a bit to work out what "the bus children being squeezed out" (15 mins) meant ("bus kids" came from the inner city -- i.e. buses used for distance rather than safety). Best, Huw From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Dec 31 15:00:42 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 15:00:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Effects of Inequality and Poverty In-Reply-To: <073401cf067a$a88307d0$f707f10a@94160WEBDB> References: <073401cf067a$a88307d0$f707f10a@94160WEBDB> Message-ID: Berliner seems to have it nailed down pretty well. mike On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Teachers College Record < no-reply@tcrecord.org> wrote: > [image: Title] > [image: Subscribe Today] > [image: transparent 13] > Freely-Available This Week > Articles > Effects of Inequality and Poverty vs. Teachers and Schooling on > America's Youth > by David C. Berliner > This paper points out that the most popular current school reforms > offered have failed to accomplish their goal because they fail to > understand the fundamental problem of American schools, namely, income > inequality and the poverty that accompanies such inequality. Prescriptions > to fix our schools cannot work if the diagnosis about what is wrong with > them is in error. > > Commentaries > Restructuring Teacher Education > by Kathryn Boonstra > Traditional teacher training programs fail to prepare new educators for > the realities of the classroom, and alternative certification programs > threaten to undermine teaching as a respected career. In this piece, a > third year teacher and current M.A.T. student discusses how and why teacher > preparation programs must be reformed. > > Book Reviews > The Beginner's Guide to Doing Qualitative Research: How to Get into the > Field, Collect Data, and Write Up Your Project > by Erin Horvat > reviewed by Scott Freeman > ------------------------------ > Rethinking Pedagogy for a Digital Age: Designing for 21st Century > Learning > by Helen Beetham & Rhona Sharpe (eds.) > reviewed by Kathy-Ann Daniel-Gittens > ------------------------------ > Teaching as a Design Science: Building Pedagogical Patterns for Learning > and Technology > by Diana Laurillard > reviewed by Mary Lynn Collins > Editorial > For Subscribers > > See these relevant articles online: > Complicating White Privilege: Poverty, Class, and the Nature of the > Knapsack > by Paul Gorski > Since its popularization in the 1990's, the term "white privilege" has > become, perhaps, the central focus of "diversity" and "multicultural" > education discourses. Although the concept can be a critical component of > understanding and undermining racial hierarchies in schools, it has been > co-opted (largely by white scholars and from scholars and activists of > color) and often used in overly-simplistic ways. I discuss, for instance, > the enforcement of dialogic controls in conversations about white > privilege, and particularly in white educator caucus dialogues, that > disallow consideration for intersecting oppressions, including economic > injustice, thereby ignoring tremendous differences in access to privilege, > even among white anti-racist educators. As a result, the popular "white > privilege" discourse in education appears to be stuck in a state of > arrested development that actually further privileges white keynoters and > consultants who have built economically solvent careers by writing and > speaking about it, sometimes without acknowledging how their privilege > operates differently from that of white people who do not enjoy the leisure > time or resources to write essays about white privilege. I argue that these > complexities must be explored more earnestly, especially by white people in > the education milieu, including me, who have strengthened our privilege > through an increasingly profitable white privilege "industry." > > > Teaching's Conscientious Objectors: Principled Leavers of High-Poverty > Schools > by Doris A. Santoro > This article introduces a category of teacher attrition that is rooted in > the moral and ethical aspects of teaching: principled leavers. The study > looks at how 13 former teachers weigh the competing responsibilities of > what they consider good teaching in relation to their responsibilities to > society, the profession, their institutions, students, and themselves. > > > Using the Lens of Economic Class to Help Teachers Understand and Teach > Students from Poverty: A Response > by Ruby K. Payne > This is a response by Dr. Ruby K. Payne, author of *A Framework for > Understanding Poverty,* to "Miseducating Teachers about the Poor: A > Critical Analysis of Ruby Payne's Claims about Poverty" by Bomer et al. The > lens of economic class is used to help teachers understand and teach > students from poverty; *Framework* was never intended to be "an > exhaustive tome on stratification in society"-whether that stratification > pertains to race, gender, or ethnicity. The work is developed to build > human capacity and assist with the intergenerational transfer of knowledge. > Payne cites scholarly studies on multiple settings throughout the United > States where her techniques have been implemented the past decade. She > explains that "hidden rules," a linchpin of her philosophy, are based on > patterns-and all patterns have exceptions. *Framework* takes a cognitive > approach to class based on "situated learning." The work is at the micro > level, not at the macro level of systems. > > Follow us on Twitter: @TCRecord > > > ------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from this newsletter, please browse to: > https://www.tcrecord.org/MyAccount.asp?uid=100293&pwd=1384520 > From smago@uga.edu Tue Dec 31 15:45:07 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:45:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Effects of Inequality and Poverty In-Reply-To: References: <073401cf067a$a88307d0$f707f10a@94160WEBDB> Message-ID: There are several versions of this paper on youtube when David was giving talks based on this material prior to publication, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyYCEqHOhzk -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 5:01 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Effects of Inequality and Poverty Berliner seems to have it nailed down pretty well. mike On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Teachers College Record < no-reply@tcrecord.org> wrote: > [image: Title] > [image: Subscribe Today] > [image: transparent 13] > Freely-Available This Week > Articles > Effects of Inequality and Poverty vs. Teachers and Schooling on > America's Youth > by David C. Berliner > This paper points out that the most popular current school reforms > offered have failed to accomplish their goal because they fail to > understand the fundamental problem of American schools, namely, income > inequality and the poverty that accompanies such inequality. > Prescriptions to fix our schools cannot work if the diagnosis about > what is wrong with them is in error. > > Commentaries > Restructuring Teacher > Education > by Kathryn Boonstra > Traditional teacher training programs fail to prepare new educators > for the realities of the classroom, and alternative certification > programs threaten to undermine teaching as a respected career. In this > piece, a third year teacher and current M.A.T. student discusses how > and why teacher preparation programs must be reformed. > > Book Reviews > The Beginner's Guide to Doing Qualitative Research: How to Get into > the Field, Collect Data, and Write Up Your > Project > by Erin Horvat > reviewed by Scott Freeman > ------------------------------ > Rethinking Pedagogy for a Digital Age: Designing for 21st Century > Learning > by Helen Beetham & Rhona Sharpe (eds.) reviewed by Kathy-Ann > Daniel-Gittens > ------------------------------ > Teaching as a Design Science: Building Pedagogical Patterns for > Learning and Technology > > by Diana Laurillard > reviewed by Mary Lynn Collins > Editorial > For Subscribers > > See these relevant articles online: > Complicating White Privilege: Poverty, Class, and the Nature of the > Knapsack > by Paul Gorski > Since its popularization in the 1990's, the term "white privilege" > has become, perhaps, the central focus of "diversity" and "multicultural" > education discourses. Although the concept can be a critical component > of understanding and undermining racial hierarchies in schools, it has > been co-opted (largely by white scholars and from scholars and > activists of > color) and often used in overly-simplistic ways. I discuss, for > instance, the enforcement of dialogic controls in conversations about > white privilege, and particularly in white educator caucus dialogues, > that disallow consideration for intersecting oppressions, including > economic injustice, thereby ignoring tremendous differences in access > to privilege, even among white anti-racist educators. As a result, the > popular "white privilege" discourse in education appears to be stuck > in a state of arrested development that actually further privileges > white keynoters and consultants who have built economically solvent > careers by writing and speaking about it, sometimes without > acknowledging how their privilege operates differently from that of > white people who do not enjoy the leisure time or resources to write > essays about white privilege. I argue that these complexities must be > explored more earnestly, especially by white people in the education > milieu, including me, who have strengthened our privilege through an increasingly profitable white privilege "industry." > > > Teaching's Conscientious Objectors: Principled Leavers of > High-Poverty Schools > > by Doris A. Santoro > This article introduces a category of teacher attrition that is > rooted in the moral and ethical aspects of teaching: principled > leavers. The study looks at how 13 former teachers weigh the competing > responsibilities of what they consider good teaching in relation to > their responsibilities to society, the profession, their institutions, students, and themselves. > > > Using the Lens of Economic Class to Help Teachers Understand and > Teach Students from Poverty: A > Response > by Ruby K. Payne > This is a response by Dr. Ruby K. Payne, author of *A Framework for > Understanding Poverty,* to "Miseducating Teachers about the Poor: A > Critical Analysis of Ruby Payne's Claims about Poverty" by Bomer et > al. The lens of economic class is used to help teachers understand and > teach students from poverty; *Framework* was never intended to be "an > exhaustive tome on stratification in society"-whether that > stratification pertains to race, gender, or ethnicity. The work is > developed to build human capacity and assist with the intergenerational transfer of knowledge. > Payne cites scholarly studies on multiple settings throughout the > United States where her techniques have been implemented the past > decade. She explains that "hidden rules," a linchpin of her > philosophy, are based on patterns-and all patterns have exceptions. > *Framework* takes a cognitive approach to class based on "situated > learning." The work is at the micro level, not at the macro level of systems. > > Follow us on Twitter: @TCRecord > > > ------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from this newsletter, please browse to: > https://www.tcrecord.org/MyAccount.asp?uid=100293&pwd=1384520 >